Transcript: What does Truth-telling for Social Change Look Like?

Music by: Black Privilege by Miiesha.

Sherryl Reddy: Wow, this is a tad nerve-racking with such a fantastic group of people online. Thank you, everyone, for joining this open learning webinar. My name is Sherryl Reddy, and it's an absolute privilege on behalf of Social Enterprise Australia to acknowledge the cultural wisdom, authority and care in this Zoom room today. We're really grateful to the team from BlakCast for bringing this learning opportunity to life in collaboration with the wonderful people that I'm in awe of being on the screen with John Paul Janke, Joshua Creamer and Stacey Thomas. Thank you for generously sharing your time and expertise with us today. 

Social Enterprise Australia hosts these webinars as part of the Social Enterprise Development Initiative, which is funded by the Federal Department of Social Services. Our intention is to create a space for change-makers across the social impact community to share knowledge and experiences that help strengthen connection, collaboration and collective care across the sector.

At Social Enterprise Australia, we're figuring out what it means to decolonise our ways of seeing and working. We've got a lot to unlearn, and we're making mistakes as we go. We're really grateful for the extreme patience and grace of First Nations guides and colleagues in helping us understand ways of doing and being that help create a healing future for everyone. 

Before I hand over to John Paul, Joshua and Stacey, I'd like to acknowledge the Traditional Custodians and care holders of the unceded lands from which all of us are joining today. I'm a migrant settler, and am so privileged to be on the lands of the Wodi Wodi people of the Dharawal language group. I recognise their continuing connection to the waters, the skies and the lands that I live, work and play on. I pay respects to Elders past, present and those who are becoming. I also want to pay respects to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people joining online today. I recognise your strength and stamina and acknowledge the continuing justice work that First Nations peoples are doing every day. I know that your presence here holds over 65,000 years of systems thinking and relational care for people, place and planet. 

I'm conscious of claiming space that isn't mine to take, so it's my absolute pleasure to hand over now to John Paul.

John Paul Janke: Thank you very much. Good afternoon, everyone. It's great to be able to yarn with you today. My name is John Paul Janke. I am the host of NITV and SBS's current affairs show called The Point. I'm also SBS and NITV's National Indigenous Affairs Editor. 

I hail from Queensland. In fact, I hail from the best part of Queensland, far north Queensland.

I was born in Cairns, but I am Wuthathi from Eastern Cape York and also Mer (Murray Island) from the Torres Strait, the easternmost inhabited island in the Torres Strait. I live on Ngunnawal Country in Canberra and have done so for many decades. So thank you for joining us today.

Today, we're going to look at what does truth-telling and social change actually look like. We've got a range of topics we want to discuss, and to do that, we've gathered two of the best people to talk about truth-telling and social change. Joining me today is Stacey Thomas, who's the CEO of the Wyatt Trust, which is Australia's oldest philanthropic foundation. It has a really great vision, and that's to make South Australia free from poverty. Stacey's also been the Founding Chief Executive Officer of Foundation SA, and she's previously held roles with the Myer Family Company, the Telstra Foundation and the Truss Company. 

Joining us from Queensland is Josh Creamer. Josh is a Waanyi Kalkadoon man who was born and raised in beautiful Queensland. He was Queensland's first Indigenous barrister, and he was the Chairperson of the Truth-telling and Healing Inquiry. I'm always proud to say that he's a regular on my show The Point. Whenever we have him on [the show] our ratings go through the roof because he's a very intelligent and smart man to break down some complex discussions.

Today we're talking about truth-telling. We want to have a look at what actually is truth-telling? Why is it important? How social enterprises can support truth-telling. How we mobilise and support each other, especially businesses, to support healing, justice and reconciliation. What is your organisation's role and responsibility to get behind truth-telling? We've got about 50 minutes for a panel discussion. We'll take some Q&A from the audience and then we'll close up shop. So about an hour discussion on truth-telling. 

Today's conversation comes at a very important point in our history. Earlier this week we saw the WA Governor Chris Dawson deliver a historic apology to the Noongar people, about a massacre. The Pinjarra massacre, which was an attack led by WA's first Governor, James Stirling. It was way back 191 years ago that James Stirling led a group of armed officials to ambush a Noongar camp in Pinjarra, where they shot and killed around 20 unarmed and unprepared Indigenous men, women and children. There are a couple of quotes in the news stories from the WA Governor Chris Dawson, which I thought are relevant for today's discussion. In apologising, he said: "To me, it meant telling the truth in all its complexities of the past in order to heal in the present and do all I could to contribute to the growth and trust of reconciliation." 

The Governor and the Noongar people gave each other saplings, some young trees. One was an olive tree that was planted by Governor Stirling in 1835 and still grows in the lawns of Government House in WA today. The Bindjareb Noongar people gave a Jarrah tree to the Governor that was planted in Government House. They spoke about "These young trees are physical embodiments of the regeneration of respect and the rekindling of trust." The Governor said, "As these trees grow and mature, and their roots take hold, they will stand as a physical representation of our resolve to walk in unison and in growth." I felt that’s some really great comments to put us in the space for a discussion today about truth-telling. It shows when we have leadership, and the courage to look at Australia's past, how that can help moving forward into the present. 

Let's get onto the panel discussion, Josh and Stacey. Josh, I want to start with you. You're the former Chairperson of the Truth-telling and Healing Inquiry. Can we get a definition of what actually is truth telling? 

Joshua Creamer: Thanks JP, and thanks for that introduction. Yes, one of the first Indigenous barristers in Queensland, but Nathan Jarro and Tammy Williams, there are a few before me.

That's right, we had the Path to Treaty process in Queensland. We set up the Treaty Institute, but importantly, in my role, I was chairing the Truth-telling and Healing Inquiry. That came about because of my work - working on stolen wages, working on Stolen Generation cases over the last 10 years, and working at Native Title Space. We had a terms of reference, and there was a focus, I think, on the historical component.

Truth-telling for Australia is critically important because we know that we have such a complex history. We know in Queensland, for example, 200,000 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people around the time of British arrival, that population was wiped out to about 25,000 by 1897. Almost 90% of us were brutalised, and the population diminished. By 1897 we see 22,000 people move into mission settlements and reserves here in Queensland. That situation stayed in place until 1986 in a legal form. 

So we talk about truth-telling. We talk about that first part of our history, that we were here first.

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people occupied this part of the country for many generations. We know that up to 2,000 generations, maybe longer. The brutal impact of that early arrival, then the mission period, which inflicted a huge amount of abuse and had a big impact on our ability to practice culture. 

In Queensland, when we talk about truth-telling, we want to pull the curtain back on that part of history, and we want all Queenslanders or all Australians to understand that part of the history. In my work I've realised, and not just the Truth-telling and Healing Inquiry, but in a lot of my work. I've realised no matter how educated you are, if you've grown up in Queensland's education system or Australia's education system, it's very highly unlikely that you would have learned anything about our Indigenous history. So truth-telling for us is to pull back the curtain on that part of our history, and for all Queenslanders and all Australians to understand it.

John Paul Janke: Yeah. Thanks, Josh. Stacey, I want to come to you about what truth-telling means to you. But can we go back a step? Josh mentioned something about history and the history that he was taught at school. Can you tell us what history, in terms of Indigenous history, you were taught at school?

Stacey Thomas: Yeah. I'm embarrassed to say, probably like many people on the call, I'm of an age where I don't recall learning any history, that is the history that I'm coming to know today. Definitely European history, definitely a version of colonial history, but not necessarily true history. 

John Paul Janke: I think many First Nations leaders, and in fact, I heard the Governor General say at Uluru at the 40th anniversary this week, that the three elements of Australian history are: our First Nations history, the arrival of the British and the British institutions, but then our multicultural history. They are the three facets which make up modern-day Australia.

Why is it then that First Nations history is sometimes not considered Australian history? It's not taught in schools, or only until recently it was taught in schools. Why do you think it's important that we teach First Nations history as part of Australian history in today's curriculum? Stacey?

Stacey Thomas: Well, I think it goes back to the comments that you opened with. If we're looking and striving for reconciliation, whatever that may mean to individuals. We know that we want a better present, definitely a better future. We can't do that without understanding truth and history. 

That first step is really being able to have a deeper knowledge and understanding of what's happened before. Before our time here and before colonisation, but also during the process of colonisation. That to me, is the first step in being able to understand how we move forward and how we create that respectful community and society that we all want to live in.

John Paul Janke: Yeah. Thank you, Stacey. 

Josh, in terms of truth-telling, we say truth-telling is important for the nation. Why is truth-telling important to First Nations people? Is it because it's about healing and justice, it's about restoring dignity and voices? What were people telling you when they started to give evidence as part of your truth-telling process? Why truth-telling was important to them as First Nations people of Queensland. 

Joshua Creamer: Yeah, thanks, JP. You mentioned those three stages as a nation. Noel Pearson's Boyer Lecture, when he's giving those Boyer Lectures around the Uluru Statement and The Voice. He sets those out. I think his first podcast on the Boyer Lecture is a brilliant lecture for people to understand that history and the importance of The Voice. 

I guess my perception of it, and it's things that I've observed not just in the Inquiry, but also particularly my work on the Stolen Generation. I remember we went to a meeting in Darwin, and Eileen Cummings, and there were a number of people there who were part of the Stolen Gen Corp, they sat down, and they talked to us. Since the Bringing Them Home Report, over 20 years, Eileen Cummings had met with six or seven prime ministers, continually advocating for recognition of the Stolen Generation in the territory. What really hurt people in that room the most, about 10 of them sitting around the table, and what I took away from it, was that there were parts of the media, and parts of the community that continued to deny what had happened to members of the Stolen Generation, to Eileen Cummings and other people that she grew up with and were victims of the Stolen Generation. 

We worked on that case for about 12 months, and it came to an end. It came to an end because the Prime Minister, Scott Morrison at the time, got up on TV, said, I'm going to announce this reparation scheme. I apologise to the Stolen Generation. There's compensation for people in ACT and the Northern Territory. In that moment, having sat down and worked with that group for over a year, having known their struggles. What really struck me, what I thought they took away from it, was not the compensation, not anything else, other than the validation of their experience. These people were 70, 80 years old, who had a number of years under the Stolen Generation Scheme. Has spent almost their entire adult life advocating on this issue, trying to make change, trying to get that recognition. At 70 or 80 years old, when a lot of others had passed away, they were finally getting that. 

That's what I took away again from the Inquiry. We had such a short time, you only have to Google what happened to us and the Inquiry. We got stood up. We had a three year Inquiry, a change of government, and we got wiped out the next week. So we had six months to be able to deliver on what we wanted to do in three years. 

We had a number of Indigenous witnesses come up. People like David Rags, and Aunty Flo Watson. When I reflect on it, they were people who were subject to the most abhorrent, and brutal conduct that you could treat another human. They were separated from their families.

Aunty Flos grandmother was shot and killed and her mother was wounded. They walked from Maytown down to Cooktown. The worst type of way you could treat human beings. Then they were separated from their families. They grew up in dormitories. They were sent out to work on missions, had their wages kept, all this type of thing, which is the history of Queensland. But it was those people, Aunty Flo, and Jackie Huggins, who are working hardest for reconciliation. They were the ones who were putting out the olive leaf saying, look, despite what has happened to us and our families and this history, we want to be reconciled. We want to be one, we want to go forward, we want this history to be acknowledged and accepted, but we want to walk hand-in-hand together.

Those are the things for me, a) validation of people's experience, b) ensuring that everybody in the community understands this history and the importance of that history, and our identity of who we are. As you say, we can't have these three stages of Australia if we don't accept the first part; we don't acknowledge the first part. 

All those Elders who have worked across the Northern Territory, WA, and Queensland over the last 10, 15 years on stolen wages, and Stolen Generation. It was always about the validation of their parents' story, their grandparents' story, and often their own experience. 

John Paul Janke: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Josh. A lot of the people that we've spoken to throughout the seasons of the TV show and across NITV and SBS, they say exactly the same thing. That the truth-telling gives them a space to speak their truths and actually do it in their own words. Where they can reclaim identity, agency, the narrative and actually get an opportunity to tell their story. 

Stacey, I want to come to you. Before we move on to social enterprises and how they can work towards truth-telling. Why do you think that there is a pushback? Why do you think people are against the truth-telling process?

What we heard Josh say, this was the history of Queensland, but yet a lot of people go, no, look, it happened a long time ago. We just need to forget it, get over it, and move on. Why do you think that people put up barriers about truth-telling and about the true history of not only Queensland or South Australia, but of this nation?

Stacey Thomas: I think at its essence, it's fear. I think there is a fear that if we acknowledge the truth, we're gonna have to give something up in the process. I can only speak from our experience. So we're stewarding wealth that was a bequest left by someone 140 years ago. If we start acknowledging the truth of what was happening when he was alive, and how that wealth was created? Does that mean we have to give it up? That's an extreme example. 

For the everyday person on the street. What does it mean? I feel there's this ingrained fear that has been developed through the conversations that we haven't been able to have over decades, if not centuries. That has meant it's just hard, right? People don't want to step into a space not knowing what the answer's going to be. The wisdom and everything that I've learned over my very brief journey is that it's not about that. It's not about that at all. It's exactly what we've been talking about. It's validation, and it's being heard. 

John Paul Janke: Yeah. Thank you. In Victoria they're obviously going through the treaty process at the moment, and they had a Yoorrook Justice Commission, which was the Truth-telling Commission. That was their philosophy, telling the truth is building pathways together towards the future.

You spoke about some of the fears of truth-telling. How do we overcome those fears? How do we start those initial steps towards creating foundations that truth-telling can lay for reconciliation or for a greater appreciation of First Nations history? How do we start those foundations and overcome that fear? Stacey? 

Stacey Thomas: I think the fear is an interesting one because there's also an element of not wanting to say the wrong thing. Not wanting to step into a space that isn't mine, whatever that looks like. 

In thinking about this, and for everyone on the call that's wondering what does it mean to me and what do I do next? I think truth-telling is internal work. It's actually you learn the truth, but what are you going to do with it as an individual? It can be quite an internal piece of work. Therefore there is nothing to fear, because it's just you. It's you figuring out what you're hearing, what you're learning and what you're going to do with it. If you start with you and your role in that, I think it can actually remove some of that fear. 

No one's asking you to go out there on a big platform or stage in front of a thousand people and say anything. What we're asking is for you to figure out internally what it means for you and then what you're going to do with it. So start small, and that way it's not scary.

John Paul Janke: That's some great tips there. 

Josh, when you had the Truth-Telling Inquiry, the committee had really different individuals on there from different backgrounds, and different political persuasions. You had people who were First Nations activists who marched in the street in protest. Then you had conservative leaders who were former Lord Mayors of Brisbane, but who were supportive of the truth-telling and Path to Treaty. What were the advantages of having those two different characteristics on the committee as a path towards truth-telling and treaty?

Joshua Creamer: I wasn't involved in it, so I've got to acknowledge the work of people like Jackie Huggins and others who led the Path to Treaty for over six years. It wasn't something I was fully aware of until I took on that role.They did a huge amount of work in getting Queensland, getting the government on board. I want to particularly acknowledge Leeanne Enoch, because she would have had the most difficult job having to navigate the political environment and to get the Act in place. I always want to acknowledge her. I think she's a forgotten person in it all. There was a huge amount of work to bring Queensland along for the journey to Path to Treaty, and that was led by those people in particular. 

For my purposes, we had our terms of reference, and what I thought was really good and something I was always very conscious of was that this is a journey for all of Queensland. We would have to take people along that path. We had a great membership, as you say, Cheryl Buchanan, there’s photos of Cheryl marching in the 70s from the Torres Straight, who's been a leader up there for a long time. Ivan Ingram, a young Indigenous leader and lawyer. Then we had Roslyn Atkinson, a former Supreme Court Judge, sitting as our members on the Inquiry. We had a really excellent team with a diverse set of skills, and then we had a big team, about 50 staff, running the Inquiry. I guess with our broad terms of reference, take all Queenslanders along for the journey. Also there were recommendations we would be able to make in respect to the education system. There's a couple of things that I wanted to do with the Inquiry to achieve that. 

There's a Towards Truth platform that UNSW have built with one of the community legal centres. If you've got time and you're interested, jump on the Towards Truth platform. It's a great, easy-to-use platform. It covers New South Wales history. It's got some great information on there. It's got the legislation. Rather than having an Inquiry with a big report at the end that only lawyers and public servants read, and I think that was something we would have to do with the Inquiry. We wanted to look at how we could engage all Queenslanders through different forms of media and the Towards Truth platform; we wanted to build that in Queensland.

We recruited the researcher to do that, and were also speaking with Dean Gibson and a plug for Dean's Incarceration Nation, another resource. I said to Dean, look, I want to get you on board. I want you to film everything, behind the scenes, and what we do publicly. I want you to sit with the community, with individuals and to tell the story of Queensland through all these different forms of media. We wanted to do something different because we knew that we couldn't produce a report that sits on the shelves. This was a journey for all of us.

The other important thing I think everyone forgets, is how much of Queensland's history is maintained in state archives. Having worked in WA and the Northern Territory, Queensland's a very different model. Queensland, because of the mission system model, you've probably done it, JP, you can go down and get your great-grandmother's record from community and personal histories. Some of those files will have a thousand or two thousand pages in them. They're almost a daily, weekly occurrence of what your grandma, what my great-grandma, whichever person under the act, what they're actually doing. Combine that with the daily records of the superintendent, plus the government records who are conducting audits. You have this vast archives down at State archives of all these documents of what's happening. 

Very different to the Northern Territory, because Northern Territory people generally stayed on their Traditional Country. It was the children of mixed descent that were removed. Government had very little interaction except for annual audits. The same system in the Kimberley, very little documentary evidence.

What we wanted to do in Queensland was open up these state archives, open up this information. Obviously Indigenous data sovereignty couldn't do that in respect of individual records, but there's a huge archive out there which we could have balanced with people's lived experience. 

You mentioned, well, it happened a long time ago. Actually, there's still many people alive who were under that mission system, and there's a real important capturing of their evidence. It was also important for me in my language that I was using to let Queenslanders know, hey, this information's in your own documents. It's in state archives. It's in government records. It's out there, and it's accessible. Those are some of the broader things that we wanted to achieve if we had our three years in the Inquiry.

John Paul Janke: Thanks Josh. Yeah, totally agree that the institutions and archives are great resources to track historical records. I was doing some research this week about one of the very early photographs, in fact, the very first photograph in Australia, is around the 1850s. It's in the Mitchell Library, and in that collection is a photograph of a First Nations woman. Who you're able to track down. Hails from western New South Wales, was taken to Sydney, became a housemaid to a rich family, but is featured in one of the very earliest photographs of this country around 1850. You can track her life through the distribution of blankets register throughout New South Wales. 

Stacey, we started to talk about truth-telling and some of the early suggestions and tips of how people can get involved in the truth-telling process. You mentioned people start small, to take little steps initially. Let's now talk about how social enterprises can really support truth-telling. What are some of your suggestions on how social enterprises can support truth-telling? Even if it's in their local communities.

Stacey Thomas: I think it's the connection to people. Social enterprises have that connection to people, and as you've just said it's the local community. I'll give you an example. Social enterprises, by their nature, are not going to be old organisations like the 140-year-old one that I'm currently leading. So what does that mean for truth-telling? It's still work for everyone, and it's still something that everyone should be getting involved in. 

So, as an example, recently I was visiting a different city in a building that I had been to before. I learned in conversation, so in no formal way, but in conversation, that we were on a sacred site that had also been a burial ground. Now I've walked into that space, into that building and asked my First Nation friends and colleagues to join me without even knowing the history of the space. As the custodians of wherever you are as an enterprise, learn where you are. Learn what's happening around you, and what may have happened around you. Then how you share that in a way that enables community to come together in a way that's safe and respectful. It's a really small thing. 

Then the internal work as well, around really basic things. Another example I was thinking of was our own biases. Our own biases in the way that we operate as an enterprise that may be employing other people. A really common thing across our country is that we require tertiary qualifications. We'll look at our employment practice and say, we don't discriminate, there's nothing to see here. Yet we have this unconscious bias around what a qualification should be and what experience should be to bring to the table, which automatically discounts a lot of people. It's not just about First Nations, it can be other groups as well. Having a look at our own practices and how we can try to remove some of those unconscious biases that are there because they've been handed down to us from businesses and managers before us. 

John Paul Janke: Thank you for that. 

Josh, you operate at a state level. How can we work at a local level, or how can social enterprises work at a local level to support truth-telling?

Joshua Creamer: I think, echo Stacey's comments. 

I think there's an education on an individual level and accessing resources. Whether it's jumping on NITV, Towards Truth, or a whole range of different resources. I think there's an organisation level, adopting into the culture of the organisation, and what you stand for. I actually think, and having been through this process, I think there's an important need for advocacy at the broader level. 

With what happened in Queensland in terms of the Inquiry, the now premier was, oh, this is divisive. We want to get rid of it. It was never divisive. It was a political strategy after The Voice. What I took away from it was how many organisations came out and publicly, and privately showed support for the work of the Inquiry. Churches and different community organisations. There was a huge amount of support.

I think that we can't let the politicians off the hook. This does need to happen at a state level. It does need to happen at a national level, and we need that advocacy. Queensland's parked, they'll abolish theirs. The Northern Territories parked, they basically abolished their treaty work that Tony McAvoy and Dodson led. Other than New South Wales, I mean, there's The Voice in South Australia, which is bumbling along. So there's a few things around, but I do think we need organisations on whatever level, whether it's local, state, or national. I think we need this united approach and this advocacy around the importance of this work.

I said it during the Inquiry that this generation, they're not going to be around forever. Aunty Jackie Huggins, David Rags, Aunty Flo Watsons, Mervyn Streets and Eileen Cummings, they're not gonna be around forever. There's a real importance in the time now to capture their history so that we can all live and learn from it. That can't happen without strong advocacy, and it shouldn't just be the Indigenous individuals and the Indigenous organisations who are championing truth-telling. This is a journey for all of us. 

The WA governor's a good example. The more that we have people at all levels advocating about the importance of advocacy and putting it on the politicians, the decision-makers, that this has to happen, the more likely that it will occur. If we don't say anything, we just simply let them off the hook. 

John Paul Janke: Yeah. Thanks, Josh. I remember the great line you said at one of the final press conferences when the new government were winding up the Inquiries. You said, people are dying to tell their story, literally. People are dying to tell their story. I think it's important that we get their story and their evidence told before they pass on. 

Stacey, one of the things you spoke about was people's fear. Overcoming people's fear of truth-telling as part of a reconciliation journey or part of really healing and justice for First Nations people. What are some of the other tips? How do we mobilise people and businesses to support healing, justice, reconciliation and truth-telling? How do we actually mobilise people and businesses? 

Stacey Thomas: I think it's a great question. Joshua, what you were just saying then around the advocacy piece. We've got a whole bunch of people on this call that are from the same sector, right? We've got social enterprises from all around the country, so no one needs to be doing it alone. We can come together as a sector and say, as a sector, we collectively want to stand for this and want to put our voice to this, our experience and our power to this. 

I also think it's really important to find your people. Find the people that you can stand with, and not feel like it's something that you have to do on your own. It does, it takes everyone. So it does take the people that are willing to put their head up first and stand out there and say, look, on the surface it might look like this has nothing to do with me, but this is important, and this is why. Then it takes everyone behind that to come together as well. So I think in terms of mobilising, my recommendation would be to find your crowd. Who else are you going to do this with? Because I can guarantee on a call with 150 people, there's probably 150 people who want to stand up and do this. So let's mobilise together. 

John Paul Janke: Is it important to find a champion within your business or your organisation? Or is it something that a team of people should do? Is it something that should be from the executive down? To say, we want to go through a process of truth-telling for our organisation, we need to do this. Is it both of those? Is it lots of people working together, as you're saying, to go through a truth-telling process or support healing or justice, etc? 

Stacey Thomas: I mean, champions help, they always help. It's good to know that there's someone there that's willing to really be out in front and driving this work. But then it can become just about that person and their personal passion or interest, whatever it might be. Ideally, you want both. You want it to be within the DNA of the organisation. 

At Wyatt we know when we're recruiting people and people are coming on board, this is who we are as an organisation and this is what we stand for. If it's not for you, then you're not for us. While it's helpful to have a champion, it's got to be organisation-wide as well. 

John Paul Janke: Thanks, Stacey. 

Josh, you spoke about the work of the Truth-Telling and Healing Inquiry. Can you give us some of the lessons that were learned from that Inquiry? A couple of the lessons that you've learned from that Inquiry. 

Joshua Creamer: I will just say in respect to that previous question. I think leadership's important as well, JP. Leadership at the top and making sure this is something the organisation really supports and is behind is always a really powerful tool to make sure the success in trying to achieve these different initiatives. 

Look, there's a few things, and when I think about truth-telling, obviously I think about the Inquiry, but I think about my work generally. Working with Elders across, particularly northern Australia, in the last 10 to 15 years. It showed me ultimately, how easy these things can be abolished. We're talking here truth-telling, and I talk about the Path to Treaty and the work of others, but we're talking about generations of work to this point. 

Where I think about the history and those early generations who had that early frontier violence. They had no ability to influence their circumstances. Then you've got that next generation living on the missions and places. They're the ones who had the strikes. The Torres Strait Islands strike, the Palm Island strike, strikes over in the Kimberleys, the Wave Hill strike. There's a generation there of people who are trying to exercise their rights. They're trying to influence the decision-makers. You've got my generation, we've had access to greater education, we can have more influence, can talk to politicians. My wife's a politician, I can try and influence her. We've got a bit more ability to try and influence the circumstances of ourselves and others around us for advocacy. 

I think that isn't the critical part because we're talking about two or three generations, longer, of people's advocacy to try and get recognition for what's happened to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people here in this state. With the flick of a pen we can see a politician change that. It shows me how fickle those things are. It shows me how it's such a fine line to try and walk that balance of Indigenous rights, Indigenous issues, versus political priorities.

I always think if we've got the mass of support, we've got that groundswell of support, we've got that accountability on politicians, this won't go away. Truth-telling Queensland's not going to go away, we know that. We might sit back for a while and wait for our time, but there'll be plenty of other people who will pick up the pen and run with it as well.

What I took away is how fickle decisions can be. Indigenous issues will never be an overriding priority. How our history can be, the curtain can be closed, the box can be shut really quickly. It's not a focus, but you've got to balance that. When you know what the challenge is, you've got to meet that challenge. 

You know those media conferences I was doing, those press conferences. It could have been a situation where, hey, we're abolishing the Inquiry. All right, let's pack up, let's go home, let's sit in a box. When I took on the role of chair, the government scoped what the Inquiry would look like. There was a scope there, and I said, well, that's out the door. We're going to run this Inquiry how we want. Part of that was actually, you're going to take 12 months to set up the Inquiry. It's like, no, we're not. We're going to start as quickly as we can. We're going to be as highly visible as we can, and we're going to be as loud as we can, because this is a really important part of the process. 

What I'm saying is you meet the challenge you're up against. We know what we're up against here. We're up against the tide of history. We're up against the political influence. But there will be an opportunity for truth-telling to be at the forefront again, and we've got to not waste the time. I think that if the labor government had their time over again, they would have got on with truth-telling a lot quicker than they did.

John Paul Janke: Josh, I want to get your comments on how did you sell the Truth-Telling Inquiry to non-Indigenous Queenslanders? To say, look, this is part of Queensland's history. It's an important part of Queensland's history that we go through this truth-telling process. How do you sell that to non-Indigenous Queenslanders? Given Queensland's brutal history when it comes to First Nations people, but also given a lot of people go, that happened in the past. We don't need to talk about it. We voted no against that in the referendum. So there's all this noise. How did you sell that to non-Indigenous Queenslanders? That truth-telling is important when it comes to Queensland's history. 

Joshua Creamer: Firstly I think the Truth-telling and Healing Inquiry website might still be live. The government hosted it, so for anyone who wants to jump on and look at our opening statements, our opening ceremony. We had a number of witnesses. I think we had seven or eight Indigenous witnesses give evidence in that one sitting. Their submissions are online. There's videos of them giving evidence. We also had a director government session. We had six Director Generals, the Police Commissioner, and about 13 departments provide submissions. If you want to read something really interesting, go and read the DATSIP, Department Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Partnerships submission. All that's online as a resource, and it gives you a glimpse into the work that we wanted to achieve. 

Now, this is one of the things being a Barrister. Every word counts. You say one thing wrong, and people hang on it. I wanted to make sure, and that opening ceremony is a good example, if you get the chance to watch it, that my language engaged with everybody. That it wasn't confrontational, it wasn't divisive. This was about unity, and this was about a journey for all of us. 

In that opening ceremony, I actually give examples of settlers who stood in front of the guns of the native police to protect Aboriginal people. I gave examples of non-Indigenous people advocating in the early 1800s for what was happening, or mid-1800s for the protection of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I wanted to make sure that people knew that this isn't just black history. This is not just a version of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people sitting around a room coming up with their own version of history. This is something that all of our ancestors have been a part of. There are many really important stories of non-Indigenous Australians out there advocating for us for a generation or generations now. So my language was always very unifying. I made sure that I identified, as I say, examples of Indigenous Australians and non-Indigenous Australians coming together. Those are really important themes which I always spoke to whenever there was an opportunity to do so with Inquiry.

John Paul Janke: Thanks Josh. Hopefully the website is still up there with some great documents. 

Stacey, let's look forward now. How important is truth-telling to the future of Australia, the future of this nation? Have you had any examples where you yourself have gone through a truth-telling process? How has that been part of the growth and journey of your organisation? 

Stacey Thomas: Our truth-telling process has been a long one. Our Founder was one of the first colonisers of what is now South Australia. When he passed, he left a bequest which formed our organisation. That bequest was made up of land primarily. Land that he's purchased that was never ceded. We have a particular history that meant our truth-telling process is one that most [organisations] probably won't go through. 

We engaged a local Aboriginal historian, Dr. Jenni Caruso, Arrente woman, and she spent a year going through [our history].  We had a history of Dr. Wyatt that was written from a point of view commemorating his contribution. What is that same history written from a First Nations perspective? We engaged Aunty Jenni or Dr. Caruso to go away and do that work. She spent a year trawling through the archives, talking and oral histories to come up with the history from a First Nations perspective. We're sitting there and holding these two truths. And that's a really tricky space to be in. Our process is one that's not necessarily going to be suitable or relevant to all organisations. 

How important is it for the future? It's incredibly important. As an organisation that is meant to be here in perpetuity, is meant to be here forever for future generations. We actually need to be able to own that past, learn from it and help it inform our future work. 

I would suggest that anyone that's working in a social space that has care and love, and wants to be working in a way that's benefiting everyone, as well as First Nations people. We have to do this work. It's how it informs the future.

John Paul Janke: Stacey, how do you get over the apprehension or fear you're doing the wrong thing, or you might say the wrong thing? So it's better not to do anything. How do you get over that? 

Stacey Thomas: You just, kind of, have to do it. I've said things that are silly. I've done things that are silly. That's how we learn. That's how we grow stronger, understand the place that we want to be, and that's going to make the biggest difference. It's uncomfortable. You feel like an absolute dill, and it's a fear of looking a bit silly, right down to a fear of, I'm actually going to do harm if I say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing. The fear is real, and it's legitimate. As leaders and as leaders of organisations, you have to lean into that and do it anyway, because that's what we're here for. 

John Paul Janke: Thanks, Stacey. Josh and Stacey, some good questions are coming in the chat. Talking about organising ourselves to advocate as a sector. Are there any good models to follow across the sector in terms of truth-telling? Have you seen any, Josh or Stacey?

Stacey Thomas: So for me, for the sector on truth-telling, no. I think it's still really early days, and it's very individualistic. There aren't ways to mobilise together around that. I'd be looking at mobilising around a common purpose, whether that's the purpose of your organisation or the intent of the truth-telling. If you're looking to mobilise, finding that common ground. 

John Paul Janke: What about you, Josh?

Joshua Creamer: Yeah, I do. I think starting with your own organisation first and the individuals that are in it. The other part is the advocacy. Whether that's knocking on the doors of your politicians or writing to them letting them know this is really important. That's where, in terms of truth-telling and healing, that's where the decision gets made. The more politicians that know this is something important to the community, and we want to see this happen, the better.

John Paul Janke: So, if the community are behind truth-telling, politicians from any political party will support it. Given that their constituents and voters are saying this is something that's important to us, but also to the nation.

How do we hold the space for truth-telling? Stacey, you mentioned that you went through a process of truth-telling. I would imagine there were some objections within the organisation, within individuals, and resistance to truth-telling. How did you hold the space for truth-telling?

Stacey Thomas: So here's my little secret to 140 of my closest friends. I made the decision, and a couple of us within the organisation made the decision very early that we would publicly say what we were doing. Therefore whatever happened, it was already in the public domain that we were doing it. We couldn't hide from that. Now that's a risky way to do it, but that's how we felt we could keep accountable and make sure that we had to create the space to keep the work progressing and doing it. It may not be the right approach for everyone, but that's certainly how we did it. 

It's also about kindness. We have been shown the biggest amount of graciousness and respect from our First Nations friends and colleagues, who have created space for us. Which is just amazing when you think about what we're trying to do and that we should be there making this space, and yet it's really been a two-way street.

I think if you're going into it with genuine intent, the space is actually there. If you're going into it with any other kind of motivation, that's when you're going to end up in a bit of strife. 

John Paul Janke:  Some great comments there. One of the things that I think non-Indigenous people believe, or even some organisations believe that to give First Nations people some sort of gain, or a truth-telling process or something, non-Indigenous people have to lose something. That to give Indigenous People something, something has to be taken away or lost. Did you lose anything by going through a process of truth-telling?

Stacey Thomas: No, and we've gained so much. No we haven't lost anything at all. 

John Paul Janke: Thank you. 

Josh, what are your thoughts on that belief that non-Indigenous people have to give something up or lose something for First Nations people to get justice, reconciliation, truth-telling or treaties?

Joshua Creamer: I will just say too, in terms of models. Obviously, Mundanara is online, and they've done a lot of good work with BlackCard in terms of educating organisations and individuals about their history. I know Leann Wilson up here in Queensland as well. Leann's done some great work through Regional Economic Solutions. Her organisation has done a lot of training in government and educating about these types of truths and taking people on a journey. There's different organisations out there that can work with you, different Indigenous organisations. 

No, there isn't a loss. It's a bit like, I always refer to native title, and I've been practising native title for close to 15 years as a barrister. I remember even in the early days of native title, where there were photos of people's backyards, and it was like your backyard's under threat. There's a native title claim over Rockhampton, we know all the hype, we've seen it. You realise 25 years after the native title process kicked off, it's had no impact on 99% of Australia. It's had a little impact. It's obviously some recognition of rights and interests for Aboriginal people, and pastoralists, there are some agreements, but people didn't lose anything.

There is always this fear, and Yoorrook's a good example. I want to recognise the important work that Yoorook Commission did in their truth-telling process. If you want to read a brilliant part of our history, read the Yoorrook Report as another example. Particularly that first part of the report is just a beautiful read. You realise, having gone through that process, that it's a process of recognising our history and validating it. People aren't losing anything from it. We're only gaining as a society.

John Paul Janke: Yeah, thanks Josh. The report was called Truth Be Told which was a great report. Thousands of people gave evidence under the Yoorrook Justice Commission. Stacey and Josh, we're fast coming to the end of our conversation and throw it open to a couple of questions through the chat. One question that has come through is, What do we see as the role of multicultural Australia in reconciliation and especially in truth-telling and reconciliation? Stacey, what are your thoughts on the role of multicultural Australia in reconciliation?

Stacey Thomas: I love this question. To me, to put it bluntly, I don't think it matters if you're a seventh-generation Australian or if you've been here for only a short time. It's everyone's role. In some ways we as a society have so much and can learn so much from our newer arrivals as well in trying to push this momentum. There's a role for everyone. 

John Paul Janke: Josh, what are your thoughts?

Joshua Creamer: It is educate yourselves and advocate.

My own family is multicultural in respect of our Chinese heritage. Six or seven generations ago, Chinese heritage mixing with the Indigenous population up in the Gulf. There's a big part of Northern Australia where we have got that. Whether it's Malay, Chinese, or the Solomon Islands there's a huge part of our history which is mixed with Indigenous Australians. It's a journey for all of us. Come here and learn the history and advocate. 

I think critical thinking is an important thing. Don't accept what you're told in respect of Indigenous Australia, and understand how the history affects those social and economic outcomes today for our mobs.

John Paul Janke: Thank you. I want to flick it back to the team soon, but I might get your final thoughts and comments on the conversation today. Stacey, have you got any final thoughts or comments on truth-telling, why it's important and how social enterprises can really support truth-telling?

Stacey Thomas: I think my final thought is probably riffing off what Joshua has just said throughout this whole call about advocacy. Social enterprises bring a different voice and a different perspective on what's happening in community. Being able to use that and use it well, I think, is just as important as a long-established organisation or an individual.

John Paul Janke: Thank you. Josh? 

Joshua Creamer: Truth-telling is not something locked in the past. As I said earlier, our history has a huge impact on our Indigenous populations today. I don't think we'd have the social and economic disadvantage but for the fact our wages were stolen, our children were separated, all those types of things. If you want to address the issues today, you're in that sector, you want to address social and economic disadvantage. Well, you need to understand how it's been impacted by our history and what the foundation is. I don't think you can truly ever address it unless you understand the past. 

John Paul Janke: Thanks, Josh. You've plugged lots of places to go for more information. A few books, a few reports. Of course, we encourage people to watch more NITV and SBS, especially from Indigenous producers and content-makers that tell the story, the true story of Australia. In fact, SBS has a great series on at the moment called The Idea Of Australia, which you can watch on Wednesday nights, or I think it's on SBS On Demand, which challenges the idea of Australia.

Josh and Stacey, where can people go? Where do you think people can go for more resources? Where do you tell people to go, Stacey? 

Stacey Thomas: So certainly we've tried to be really public about our journey, and you can see more on our website, which is wyatt.org.au. I’m very happy to share anything that might be helpful with anyone on the call.

John Paul Janke: Thank you. Josh? 

Joshua Creamer: Jump on our Truth-Telling and Healing page in Queensland, see some of the work we're doing. Towards Truth's a great platform, and if you're interested in New South Wales history, I'd start there. Then all your black media, NITV show a great showcase of Indigenous content, which covers our history, and there's lots of other resources too. There's a couple of easy things for people to do tonight. 

John Paul Janke: Thanks, Josh. Thank you, Stacey, for joining the conversation. I know you're both very busy people, but we appreciate you taking the time, and giving us some great insights into truth-telling, its importance, and the opportunities for our nation.

Thank you for joining us today. Mundanara, I'll throw back to you. 

Mundanara Bayles: Well, my brother JP, thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule. You flew in from Uluru last night, and jumped on the call today. Brother Josh, to also make yourself available today, I can't thank you enough. Stacey, good friend of mine. Very much a big fan of yours and the work that you've been doing as an ally in the space, and holding space for First Nations peoples, is really important in these conversations. Thank you for the work that you're doing across philanthropy and in different sectors that you're in. 

Lastly, part two of this truth-telling webinar, brought to you by SEDI and Understorey, will be Aunty Jackie Huggins in conversation with JP. Brother Josh Creamer, I hope you can make it as well, and maybe Dr. Greg Phillips, the chairperson of the Ebony Institute. 

Thank you to each and every one of you. Thanks to all that made the time to be here.

Lastly, I'm just going to hand over to Sherryl from Social Enterprise Australia to wrap it up, but thanks very much from the BlakCast team.

Sherryl Reddy: Thank you so much, John Paul, Joshua, Stacey and Mundanara for compelling us as a sector to move from words to action to meet the challenge of truth-telling.

I think overcoming fear is part of our responsibility as social enterprises. If we're a sector that strives to be good for people and planet, if that's our purpose, we can't actually meet that without truth-telling. 

You reminded me of something that I think Tammy Baart from Blak Ignited said. She says to truly walk together, we must be willing to feel the heat, not just hear the story.

So thank you to all of you for your precious time, for sharing so much and so generously with us today. 

Thank you to all of you for taking the time to join us today. Really appreciate your time. Wishing you all a good afternoon.