Transcript: First Nations Governance, Finance, Land and the Climate Crisis

Music: Ocean - John Butler - 2012 Studio Version 

Sherryl Reddy: Thank you for joining this open learning webinar convened by First Nations Affairs. My name is Sherryl Reddy, and it's a real pleasure on behalf of Social Enterprise Australia to acknowledge the cultural wisdom, authority, knowledge and care in this Zoom room today. We're really grateful to Bec Blurton from First Nations Affairs for bringing this learning opportunity to life in collaboration with Raylene Bellottie and Tyson McEwan. We do have apologies today from another speaker, Ben Ainsworth, who couldn't make it. Thank you all for sharing your time and expertise with us. 

Social Enterprise Australia hosts these webinars as part of the Social Enterprise Development Initiative, which is funded by the Federal Department of Social Services. Our aim is to create a space for change-makers across the social impact community to share knowledge and experiences that help strengthen connection and collective care across sectors. 

At Social Enterprise Australia, we've definitely got work to do to unlearn colonial ways of seeing and doing. We know this is critical work for all of us across the sector if we really want to contribute to building an economy that puts people and planet first. We're really excited to learn from all of you in today's session. 

Before I hand over to Bec, Raylene and Tyson, I'd like to acknowledge the Traditional Custodians and care holders of the unceded lands from which we're all joining today. I'm privileged to be on the lands of the Wodi Wodi people of the Dharawal language group. I pay my respects to Elders past and present who've cared for Country and community for thousands of years, and I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander attendees online today. Acknowledging that your presence holds over 65,000 years of systems thinking and relational care for people, place and planet.

I'll hand over to you, Bec.

Bec Blurton: Thanks, Sherryl. Hi everyone, and hi, Tyson and Raylene, thanks for joining. 

We're hosting this conversation at a critical inflection point both globally and nationally. The climate crisis is accelerating, and with it the urgency to re-evaluate the governance, investment and legal systems that shape our collective response. In Australia, climate adaptation and transition efforts are increasingly intersecting with First Nations' land, rights and interests. Whether through renewable energy development, nature-based solutions or environmental markets. Yet institutional arrangements remain poorly equipped to engage with Indigenous governance on its own terms. 

These dynamics undermine both the integrity of climate action and broader pursuit of social justice. As governments and industries shift toward ESG-aligned approaches, key questions emerge. Who is defining the frameworks that we all adopt and use? What assumptions underpin our models of value, risk and reform? How do we centre governance that is grounded in Country? This session brings those questions into sharper focus.

It's an opportunity to hear from leaders working across law, finance, policy and cultural governance and to explore how we move from consultation towards structural change. When we refer to climate in this session it'll be all-encompassing of ESG, sustainability, traditional ecological knowledge and wellbeing. We're taking a holistic approach to the conversation. Let's get started.

Raylene and Tyson, from your perspective what does real climate leadership look like when it's grounded in First Nations governance and worldviews?

Raylene Bellottie: First Nations people first of all need to be at the table. We've got to be at the table and we've got to be listened to. It's got to be co-design. We need to make sure that we're inclusive in everything that's happening on our Country. The days are gone where we just sit back. 

I've seen this with mining for many, many years, where we never had those opportunities. There's all these big mines on our Country, all over Australia. I've got a big mine sitting on my Country that's gone bust, and we've got no say, and that's pretty sad. I think it's really important to make sure that we're at the table and we're involved in the co-design. The governance must be first priority and embedded into whatever project is happening on our Country. We've got to be at the table. 

Bec Blurton: Tyson. 

Tyson McEwan: Thanks, Raylene. I'll echo those thoughts as well.

For me, the corporate perspective of governance is that you have to turn your mind to the issue or your mind to the risk. You just cannot ignore one interested party. Adding to Raylene’s point about seeing First Nations people other than just the general stakeholders - to look at them as equal partners to the project.

You add in that experience and that knowledge, but also you're setting up the partnership as well. You're removing the 'other'. You're actually bringing them in, because you are operating on Country, you need to understand that environment. What are the challenges out there? No copy-and-paste approach can be done. It's actually investing the time into these communities that you're going to operate in or are operating in. 

Bec Blurton: That's great. 

What do you think is missing from the current national and global climate conversation that we need to call into the room?

Raylene Bellottie: I think, obviously, it's missing having us included. That's important that we don't seem to be at a table. We're not aligned as well. There's no big cooperation across Australia. There seem to be lots of players in this space, but there's not enough collaboration and alignment. I think we need to get that up and running. That's really important. 

Many people don't know what's going on. Out in the community, people are unaware. It's only certain people that know what's happening. There needs to be some sort of regulatory body that's overseeing this for First Nations people. To make sure that we are inclusive, we are at the table, and we are going to get equity into these projects. This is really important.

Tyson McEwan: I think for me what's missing is the change in perspectives about how we view First Nations people in the ecosystem. If you look at the Joint Standing Committee in Northern Australia and their Inquiry into the Engagement of Traditional Owners and the Economic Development of Northern Australia. We love good long titles for national inquiries! They looked into this economic development. One of the key issues was seeing native title rights or economic development on Country as some sort of encumbrance on projects, because we have to adhere to the Traditional Owners.

We must challenge ourselves to change that perspective and that viewing, so that Traditional Owners' perspectives and knowledge is equally important to include - instead of the, “oh, we have to consult them, and it's going to delay the project by six months”. If it does, then so be it. As I said before, you have to invest the time in those communities, you have to sit down and understand.

It's scarce knowledge as well. You think you're going to just rock up, have a cup of tea, and you're going to tell me everything about the Country. No, that takes time. It takes trust and respect. So I feel like it's the change in perspective, but how you get that perspective is by investing that time.

Raylene Bellottie: I might add, yes, it's about building those relationships, being transparent and making sure that our people are included. Our people have been on the Country for thousands of years. They know the Country back to front. Why wouldn't you want to be able to work with Traditional Owner people? It makes it a lot easier for your major projects.

In partnership, in co-design, every step of the way, it needs to be working with our people. It's got to be a fair system.

Bec Blurton: We've all had this conversation. I think whenever climate is mentioned out there,  there's a heavy focus on emissions or renewables, but obviously, it's much more than that. It's Country and it's community wellbeing.

We talk about a just transition, and what does that mean? How do you make that inclusive? There's heavy investment going into infrastructure for renewable projects, but how do you include all the different communities? I think we've all agreed at different times there's a real disconnect in this country between the likes of Sydney, Melbourne, Canberra and then the rest of Australia. How do you bridge that gap? 

For me to chime in on this topic. I've sat on the Taskforce for Inequality and Social-related Disclosures this year. Looking at conceptual foundations. It's a framework to support disclosures in corporations on inequality and social related impacts. It's very much focused on people and wellbeing. We've seen climate disclosures which have now been mandatory in Australia. We've seen nature-related disclosures. So this is the third.

For me, the conversation has been trying to elevate First Nations rights and interests, and separate our unique connection to Country and one another. Our long histories, our traditions, our culture, our kinship structures, our songlines, all of those things. What are the different mechanisms, or what are the approaches or the protocols required to meet First Nations rights and interests where they're at? 

When it comes to designing policy, legislation, developing agreements. We're talking renewables between proponents and Traditional Owners. What are the processes? I think there's a lot to be said for recognising First Nations with unique rights and interests rather than just another stakeholder to engage in a wider development process. 

I think when you talk climate, it goes well beyond just emissions, carbon credits, carbon offset programs or major renewable projects. I think there's a lot more to be considered. That for me is missing from the national and global conversations. 

Next question. How does your connection to Country inform your view on climate risk and opportunity? 

Tyson McEwan: For me, originally from South Hedland, Port Hedland, I go back home twice a year, and I don't appreciate the amount of mining that happens up there. It is truly crazy. The rail carts all day, every day carting the iron ore back and forth. The ships are rolling through. To see it and just the volume of iron ore coming through. I'm not there saying “oh, how much emissions is that creating?” But you start to ask, when does this end, or what's next? We can't dig our way out of this. As much as we want heaps of iron ore, it's good. Then you've got the green iron, which I didn't know about until I looked into it. It's the same-same but sort of different, which still requires all that infrastructure.

I mentioned that because you look at the footprint on the landscape of Hedland now, and it's all mining, it's just crazy. Old fishing spots that we used to go to, we can't access anymore. The dirt road to a camping spot has a new railway line there, now we have to find another way over it. It's cut-off access. Even though it's all legal, it's fine, you're not informed anymore. You don't know what's going on. Just on the road, next thing you know, there's a new railway line, and you can't go over it. You've got to try and find this safe way to it. 

Seeing all of that, it's in the back of your mind about well, what is really happening for this town and for the community? Because one day, the iron ore is going to run out. What's going to be left for them? I'm lucky enough to have a very beautiful niece and nephew and to think about their futures up there, and what they can do and contribute to the community. My connection is deeply rooted about protection. Some mining is going to happen, but how can we coexist? Even though the mines were there a couple of decades ago, does it mean those practices and policies have to remain the same? They can change; it can evolve with the need. For me, my connection shapes me about what can be done much better, but also looking forward to the opportunities ahead and seizing those opportunities as well. Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean that it can't happen.

Bec Blurton: That's great. Raylene, what are your thoughts on risk and opportunity? 

Raylene Bellottie: My Country spans from Northampton, if you know where that is, the midwest, right up to Shark Bay, my husband's area, where I grew up. Kalbarri is in my Country and it's a beautiful national park. Shark Bay's world heritage. We've got some amazing countryside. We're negotiating at the moment, our Traditional Owner group, with a hydrogen renewable energy project in the beautiful Murchison area near Kalbarri, beautiful Country. Many of our family are worried about that and concerned because it's a significant area to us.

Like Tyson said, we see all these roads change and all your favourite little spots that you want to go to. We have no say in this. We're not told and we’re not informed, we just rock up and then we can't get through here now because they've got a track through here. Look, I understand and I know that we have to have progress. I know that climate change is around the corner, and we need to do things, we need to act. We do need to be at the table. We need to be working closely with everybody that's involved, because it's important for us to be part of it. 

The risks are, that if we're not involved things could go pear-shaped. We don't want to see another Juukan Gorgedisaster. We've got to be at the table, we've got to be there working. We've got all these amazing spots, but I also know that we need a future for our people.

When you speak renewable, I want to make sure it works both ways. If we're part of it, we're at the table, we're co-designing, we're part of it, we have equity ownership in it. We can have a say, and we can make sure we're protecting Country. So have a voice. Like Tyson said, all these mines in the Pilbara, they're just there. It amazes me that one of the big mines has a pit where they've got a gravesite right in the middle of the pit. They bulldoze down roads, they move rock art. As Aboriginal people we don't go and move cemeteries or churches. So it's important that we're there, and it's got to be free, prior and informed consent.

Our people need to be understood. They need to understand what's going on. It can't be just coming out to a group of people and talking to them. It's got to be across the broader community. That engagement is really important to make sure that we're getting out there, the people understand, and it's really communicated well so that they understand. We're not opposed to it. Our people need jobs, and we need business opportunities. We need these renewables because they're going to be better for the climate. We're not opposed to it, but just so long as we're a part of it.

Bec Blurton: I think that's the risk aspect. Going back to that connection to Country. A lot of our people, especially in some of these regional remote areas, know the land. They have, like you've both mentioned, ceremonial sites or traditions in our families and our kinship structures and then all of a sudden not having access to them.

I think for a lot of the consultation that I've done through our organisation, looking at sector pathway programs, looking at different biodiversity or regen programs and working with local groups who know the stories of trees or local nature and what the seasons are. Taking all of that into account, rather than just constantly extracting. 

I think one of the aspects of that, and this has been on my mind a lot lately, is that identity makes up for a lot of our wellbeing as a people, our unique identity and that connection. When we lose that, or if that's closed off or if we're excluded again, like we have been a lot throughout the history of this country, it keeps impacting our identity. The snowball effect of these social issues and the wellbeing. For me that's the risk, and I think the opportunity is the opposite of that.

We need partnerships. The world is changing rapidly. We need innovative solutions because climate change is happening. It's now; it's been happening. It's eroding away not only our land, our connection, our people. Where are the partnership opportunities? To work together, to co-design programs, to co-design land management, to co-manage land. We're seeing that popping up. There’s some great programs here in New South Wales where I am at the moment. We've got partnerships happening throughout WA, especially the southwest because the soil there is atrocious.You are seeing groups partner with local Noongar mob and looking at regeneration programs, which is great. 

Back to that point, the world is rapidly changing. We need more partnership. It needs to be fast-tracked, it needs to be accelerated, and I think that's the opportunity. Tapping into traditional ecological knowledge, there's so much there.

Raylene Bellottie: I think it's also important to make sure that we are involved in the run-up [to projects] - we are getting prepared. Don't come to us when you're about to kick off your project, get us prepared. I don't want to hear the story where we're building this big renewable and you guys don't have any experience. You can't work on this project. It's giving us some time to be ready, so we can start getting our people trained up and ready to work. The same with the businesses. It's important to understand what are the business opportunities on these projects? So our people can gear up and get prepared because we're always left behind the eight ball. 

When it comes to the kickoff, Aboriginal people rock up, and then they're told, sorry, but you don't have the experience, you don't have the skills, you're in the wrong business. Having that partnership is crucial so that we can be prepared, we're at the table, we know what's coming, and we're getting ourselves ready. Then if we need to get capability partners to help us we can do that.

Equity is the only way for our future. In Canada, they're doing that over there and it's lifting those people in leaps and bounds. It's time for our people to reap some rewards too, so we can create some generational wealth to lift our people out of poverty. Seriously, a lot of our people, the majority of them are in poverty and Closing the Gap is not going to work without creating some wealth to lift them up. So these opportunities, we welcome them, but we've got to be at the table and in partnerships, as you say. 

Bec Blurton: Yeah, agreed. We've touched on it a little bit already, but any more thoughts around what else we lose if land is only seen through an economic or an emissions lens?

Raylene Bellottie: Many years ago I lived in Marble Bar, and living in the Pilbara, which Tyson's from, a lot of that lore and culture is still there. That really saddens me when our people aren't involved, because that cultural connection to land is so important to some of those people. If they're not a part of it, understanding and making sure it isn't destroying parts of their significant sites and areas that are really important to them, I think that's going to be pretty sad. 

That is key because it's like any religion, or any ethnic group that follows their practice. They've got their cultural practices and it's really important to make sure that's maintained and adhered to.

Tyson McEwan: I think for me, what you lose once you start to put monetary value on the land is that it is a spiritual connection, it is a living thing. When you try to monetise all this land, give it value, it's not a value, it's uneconomic. Just because it doesn't have any iron ore, it doesn't mean it's not valuable. It just doesn't have what you're looking for, and it could have many other things. I feel like once that economic lens happens, people miss out. 

As I was saying before, there's a lot of iron ore projects happening, there's a lot of mining. There's going to come a point where mining tenements are going to be very hard to find, and there's the availability of it. It's no longer just going to exist, and so there's going to be a competitive process. This means that corporate behaviour will have to change because First Nations people will be able to decide who they want to work with and who they don't want to work with as well. 

That's the opportunity. Trying to be a good partner in these frameworks and projects in a competitive market because if not, you're gonna be disowned. You're not gonna be able to operate in that area because you won't have any say in it.

A very small thing I'll add as well. I remember ages ago, so don't quote me on this, but I heard that for an entry-level position at a mining company, they were looking at the employment of local people. I don't know the truth to the figure, but they were saying that most people weren't able to get a position because they didn't have a class C licence to drive a vehicle. Something as simple as that, just a licence. When we know about that, including as Raylene was saying, starting early, starting to consult, how to build up the capability. That's the opportunity to find where the touch points are. How can we upskill? Because something as simple as that is a pretty easy fix. Ideally, it's an easy fix, but it almost compounds into a very big issue because the opportunity's there, but the door's just not opening. Because it seems like no one else is opening it. 

Bec Blurton: For such a small issue as well, as a licence, to then miss out on employment, on income, and we all know that usually supports bigger families. It's not just one person that has an impact on.

I worked with Transport for New South Wales for a while, and they had a really great licence program. I think they realised quickly it would open doors because there’s a lot of infrastructure in New South Wales and roads and all of those things. It was an easy, inclusive mechanism. Finding that a lot of Aboriginal people needed a licence, and it was, how do we solve this? Then started a driver's licensing program. 

I think that's the beauty of partnership as well, and thinking a little outside the box. Yes, everyone's banging on about growth and jobs, but how do you make things holistic? I think that's how our people think as well. When we engage in these different things that are happening on Country, we think about the whole picture, not just transaction after transaction or what is this quick, immediate fix opportunity? It's bigger than that. 

Raylene Bellottie: Yeah. I've seen a lot of times where they've had major projects, like you say, the early engagement at the beginning, but it doesn't happen. These big companies are winning these projects. They put all this information in there that they're going to do, all this employment and business and it's a real shame when they end up getting those projects, and nothing happens. Like you've got a big project that's happening for three years in a community, and the engagement doesn't happen because they come across all the barriers, the reason why they can't do it. There's got to be a lot of thought up front and I've said this many times to the government departments over here. When you're putting your tenders out, this is when you have it all in there. You identify all the opportunities, and you set them aside so that First Nations people are going to get those opportunities. If you just hand those big projects over to those companies they'll say what they're going to do on these projects, but when the rubber hits the road, it doesn't happen. They'll come up with all the barriers and all the reasons why they can't do it. 

That early engagement, getting people prepared, it just makes good sense to be able to engage the local Traditional Owner people in those communities. Especially when you're out in the regions where you're trying to empower people. It makes good sense, the fact that they're already there. You don't have to bring people in from out of town that puts a strain on bringing people in. Out in the regions where they've got housing issues and people flying in and out, that all impacts the climate as well. It's about thinking smarter on these projects, and renewables are no different. They're going to be big projects when they hit the ground, and we've got to be involved and working. Like I keep saying, at the table, in the partnership, having some ownership. It's as simple as that. It's not a hard thing to do. It's on our Country, they're on our Country. It's important that it happens.

Bec Blurton: I think there has been some progress in the IPP, Indigenous Procurement Policy, with creating targets and things. What I find is usually missing, and this is in the social space as well, the not-for-profit sector, the social enterprise sector. You look at a lot of environmental programs or biodiversity initiatives, even research. There's a lot of research that is done, and there's usually almost a superficial kind of, make sure you engage a First Nations group. Well, what does that mean, though? What does that look like in practicality? And where is the accountability around that? How are you doing that in a measured way that is inclusive? Are you aiming for co-design? Are you looking for an ongoing, inclusive relationship? Because you're trying to make an impact. I think it keeps coming back to that partnership piece. There's so much opportunity to partner and co-design and reap the benefits of that. The long-term, meaningful impact and sustainable benefits.

Raylene Bellottie: Yeah. I'm saying, when it's co-designed, it's got to be real co-design. The Aboriginal people really need to be leading it. I'm working with a group out in the Goldfields now who are starting to set up their women's group. They're doing partnerships with the CSIRO and the university. Then you're hearing other organisations saying, how are they going to do this? And what are they going to do here? How are they going to do this? I'm thinking, where's the collaboration? Where's the, this is great, how can we help them? It's not knocking the people, it's about getting out there and helping them as well. This has also got to happen because I've seen this many times where the government talks about self-determination, empowerment for our people. Well, that has to happen on these big projects, and the collaboration has to happen with complementary services. It's about getting out there and working with them and giving them a go.

Over time, we haven't had those opportunities, and I feel we can't keep the same old rhetoric - talk about doing it. It's got to happen. To me these projects, the co-design, will need to be sitting with the community, working with them, not the proponent dictating what the co-design is and running the show. That's going to be  really important and going to be challenging to see how that works. 

Bec Blurton: The finance. So what role do you think finance plays in enabling or undermining First Nations' climate solutions?

Tyson McEwan: Finance is the money, and it gets things moving, it gets the signatures happening, it gets everything going. That's all great in a sense, but there needs to be accountability. It's almost like I'm lending you this money because you told me that you're gonna invest in the community, you're gonna have this program, you're going to be doing this stuff. I want to know that what I'm investing in is what you're going to do, and if not, I'm not gonna invest anymore. That's the real power element. Is that it can dictate sort of thing. I don't invest in anything, so I'm not saying from experience, but the idea of it, you can see it moving.

During my time at uni, I was able to write a journal article on what corporate law mechanisms could better enforce Reconciliation Action Plans (RAPs). You're looking at the RAPs and the supplier diversity and the opportunities to invest in these communities. Maybe the purpose of investing in the communities is really there, but it doesn't happen. The flip side of that is that First Nations businesses who invest in themselves, their workforce, upskill, they get ready for big opportunities, and it just doesn't come through. So that's why the accountability piece. 

When you look at the climate, you're looking at what projects they are investing in and what they are doing. At the end of the day, we're consumers. We're going to be able to flex our consumer spend.

Bec Blurton: Buying power. 

Tyson McEwan: Yeah, the buying power. It's something as small as, I was with Optus, for example, and recently they were found to engage in unconscionable dealing. So I changed to Telstra, which is also not as good, but even though I'm one, well maybe 1% of consumers change their mind. At least we have to try to keep them accountable.

Raylene Bellottie: Well finance to me, as you know, my background is in finance. It's going to be important for our people to be able to create some wealth through these opportunities. I think that's really, really important. Like I said earlier, when mining came, it's been around for I don't know how long, but I was living in the Pilbara in the 80s, and there were mines up there then. Back in the late 80s, our people weren't even working. I remember BHP had three Aboriginal people working for them in 1987-88.

Bec Blurton: Wow. 

Raylene Bellottie: That's not long ago, really, when you think of it, and when you look at it now. It's been so important for our people to be able to get into that space where they can create wealth. Where they can buy their homes, educate their children, be independent and live like everybody else in this country. I think that's really important for us. 

The only other worry for us in finance is when these big renewables come. We're going to want to become equity partners. That could be a bit of a problem for us to find these partners and investors. That's something that we've got to research and find out how we're going to do that. That's important for us because we need to have buy-in on these projects. They're on Country. When we talk about caring for Country, if we're at the table, if we have equity in those projects, we have a say, we have a say on the Country. You know, “don't go there, you can't build here, that's such and such place”. We want to employ our people; we want our people in business. That's the only way forward to me, is to have ownership and equity in those projects. 

My concern is not enough is known out there. If you go out in a community, they would not even know or understand, how are we going to be involved? Where are we going to get the money from? It's really important to understand, how do people buy into these big projects? Not everybody's got billions of dollars that they can drop into a project. There are things such as investors and the banks and you name it. I think that's going to be a concern for us going forward, and how we are supported in that space.

Bec Blurton: Yeah, and I think, as frustrating as it is, money is power. This year again, for COP 30, finance is front and centre. How much are we all investing in climate action? 

I think we always hear about the trickle-down effect, and all of that. For me and some of the work that we've been doing, it's “what are the mechanisms that level the playing field”? Australia saw the Sustainable Finance Taxonomy launched this year. To label any finance to a project ‘green’, a range of criteria needs to be met. Part of that was incorporating First Nations criteria, minimum social safeguards for First Nations communities and peoples. 

Looking to other frameworks, international frameworks, like the United Nations Declaration for Rights of Indigenous People, one of the most comprehensively developed frameworks out. That goes into principles such as self-determination, incorporating or thinking about or trying to adopt processes like free, prior and informed consent. What does that look like when engaging with Traditional Owners? 

I think on the other side, as Traditional Owners, what are our priorities, our aspirations? What does our governance look like for our own people and our Country? How do we set our own standards? So that whoever is engaging us, especially when we have assets like land and especially when the likes of investors are wanting to fund different things, different projects on our land or different programs or different work, even research, what are our terms? That we can have a bit of power back and determine what actually happens on Country and with our people. 

I think it comes back to data as well. Who's in control of all the data that goes around, that's informing a lot of these decisions? Especially when you think of investment. How do we make sure that we have a controlling aspect around that? Because it's always about us.

Raylene Bellottie: I think it's important that any partnerships we have and any proponents that are coming on our Country, the first thing they need to have is First Nations governance framework alignment throughout their organisations. That should be co-designed with us, with First Nations people. They can't just come in, a company from overseas, and land on our Country and think that they can do what they like. Sorry, it's just unethical. Things have to change and we've got to be a part of it, and that's really important. 

I know Bec, you do a lot of stuff in this governance, and I think it's so important to embed all that into any organisation that we're partnering with.

Bec Blurton: Yeah. It's standards, its minimum standards, I think everywhere. How do you engage? Why are you going to engage with Traditional Owners? What's the end goal? How do you make sure that it's inclusive? And that you're thinking outside of the box. We talked about employment, there's more than that. Maybe it's health services, maybe we want to fund. 

Native seeds are becoming a huge area, their own sector, at the moment, and a lot of our people, especially out on Country, that's another opportunity for us to manage and to be out there.

Raylene Bellottie: I look at the Pilbara realistically. There's billions and billions of dollars that have come out of the Pilbara. There could be a lot more infrastructure and stuff in that Pilbara left behind by those mining companies, but it's not happening. We still have FIFO people. That's not even good for our people, mums and dads leaving their children for two weeks at a time. It needs to be creating sustainability, building capacity and community as well. It can't be just all about money. Taking all that money and giving it to the shareholders, and most of them, a majority of them, are from overseas. Seriously, we've got to change things. 

This is important to our people, to all the people in this country, but First Nations people, we're missing out. I see that mining in the Pilbara, the Traditional Owners aren't even being rewarded or compensated properly for what's happening up there now. It's done a lot of damage with a lot of the Traditional Owners in the Pilbara. It's created a lot of divide because of the way they operate and the way it's all set up with this royalty scheme. So there's gotta be a better way. 

Bec Blurton: Yeah. I'll finish up with one more question around wellbeing because I think that's important. How do we protect cultural integrity and social connection in the face of rising climate pressures? All the things we've talked about, all the infrastructure, the financing. We're seeing the Pacific and the impacts, the very real, tangible impacts, but then there's all the other ones. So, how do we protect cultural integrity and social connection in the face of all of those pressures?

Tyson McEwan: I think being part of the consultation or the conversation about what's happening on Country. The wellbeing piece is that their wellbeing is strongly tied to the responsibility to protect sacred sites or sites of significance, caring for Country, but also it's that ability to build the community development and the economic development, impact the community. The flow-on effect as well, because folks on the ground know where the resources need to go. 

Sometimes the head office is in the big city, in Perth or on the east coast, but there's no connection to what's actually happening on the ground. Starting that very early and understanding the lay of the land will enable the local community members, First Nations people, to actually have a sense of wellbeing. Because they're being asked, they're informing the project, they're taking their cultural responsibility on by making sure everything is done right, and they're discharging their ethical duty.

If you translate that to a board of directors or other executive management, the challenge now, with the rising climate, is that duty of care piece, even though that part is not recognised in Australian law yet, but if you turn it into a social licence. Even though you’ve got the approvals to be there, you can mine or do your project, if you don't have the social licence, then good luck, because no one's going to want to work with you. So everything's interconnected and that's the wellbeing piece. 

Bec Blurton: I loved the mention of duty of care. Isn't there a juicy case going on at the moment? With a director of a major company, it could possibly change the game for director responsibilities and duty of care. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think some of the details were that a director knew of a risk, and they were informed, but then still went ahead and decided against it. It blew up, and now it's about whether that individual can be held responsible for the decision that they made. Especially when you think of influence and power. Back again to power dynamics. What does that all mean, and what does that look like? I think traditionally it's been the company. All liability and responsibility have come back to the company rather than the directors, to a degree.

Tyson McEwan: Just very quickly for the audience. If you're interested in climate reporting and director duties, it's Noel Huntley SC and Sebastian Hartford Davis, and they wrote an opinion piece on how if a director doesn't turn their mind to climate risk, what are the risks for ignoring it or not attending to it?

I feel like the times have gone where no due diligence is looking to the risk. Set and forget - that doesn't exist, in this day and age, everything's evolving. You have to turn your mind to it, and you have to make an assessment because if you don't make an assessment, you'll be in more trouble than if you do.

Bec Blurton: Brilliant. 

Raylene Bellottie: I think Bec too, it's about equity of access and ensuring that happens. People in the community are all inclusive. There's inclusiveness and buy-in. I've seen it, way back when we had Native Title, where that didn't happen. That created a lot of havoc in our communities, and we still see that today, where people aren't understood. If something's going to happen on Country, I would like to see nearly 100% people behind it. I know we're not going to get that because we're going to get a lot of our people who will definitely oppose it because they care so much about Country. They just don't want any big infrastructure project sitting on their Country. At least if they've been informed and they're able to have their say, because it does create a lot of issues later on down the track, and we've seen that. It's actually broken my heart to see now, even today, from Native Title the way that was rolled out over 30 years, and people not informed, not inclusive, not being able to have their say because they don't have access to be able to get to a meeting. That created a lot of havoc with our people because they haven't been able to contribute, and their voices weren't heard. So it's important that this process happens.

Right now, I know that there are renewables. I was talking to people yesterday, and they said, you go up to the Midwest, now there's renewables everywhere. I didn't even know these were happening. They're happening, and people don't know. All of a sudden it's like getting your next-door neighbours just move in. It's happening, and you don't know. 

Bec Blurton: I think back to the first point you made, it's the who. We've had this conversation quite a lot. When you think about cultural authority, and cultural authority in some of our communities, the right people aren't being consulted or engaged. Rather, it's someone that's loud or with a profile or is in a particular position with a company, and then that engagement is used as cultural licence. That's so much risk it creates for the project, for community. It's about understanding who is the right person in community to engage.

Raylene Bellottie: Well we all are, we're all equal, we are all holders. This is what I say all the time. Yes, we have Elders, and we have that respect but we are all equal on this. It's going to impact all of us, even down to the young ones, it's their land. In the future when we go, they're going to be the right people. So it's about making sure equity of access. That everybody, if they want their voice to be heard, that they get that opportunity. 

To me, yes, the way it's happening, it's not right. It has created a lot of animosity in the community, and it's still going on. It's sad because that's not the way of Aboriginal people, to be arguing and have grudges over all these things that have been imposed on us. I think it's important that equity of access is up front at the beginning, and everybody gets the opportunity to have their voice.

Bec Blurton: We've got a few minutes left. Rapid fire. We've had a great question come through. Do you think consultation is too ‘business as usual’ when it comes to projects? 

I would be screaming yes. 

Raylene Bellottie: Yes. At this stage, definitely. You know my background working in a credit union. I'll tell you this little story. I came from working in a bank. Not many Aboriginal people in the day worked in the banks. I started at the credit union. When I went out to community to do anything, to see somebody about a loan, I wouldn’t go straight in there and sit down and say, let's do the loan. It would be about having that consultation about everything and everything but the loan and building that relationship, talking about everything else. That's the way Aboriginal people do business. The banks were asking , why are you taking so long to go out there and see somebody? I'd say, well, I have to talk to people. Do they trust me? They're not going to trust me because I'm coming out here and just going to do a loan with them. It's about building that relationship, building that rapport, and that is important to us.

Bec Blurton: Doing it the right way.

Tyson McEwan: Yeah, that's it. I was leaning towards that. Depending on how you do the consultation. Up in Hedland there are stories of where the big mining execs have rocked up to sign an ILUA, which is the Indigenous Land Use Agreement, or Native title. They've flown up from Perth that morning and expecting to sign and go. This is our first meeting together. We're gonna have a cup of tea, we'll have a chat. We're in the community hall. I want to show you my Country. So it depends how you do the consultation, and I feel like over time it evolves. 

Challenge yourself about, “oh, I would like to go to your Country and actually meet on there”. Don't put an hour, at least put three hours because we love a good chat!

Bec Blurton: Go for a week! 

Tyson McEwan: Yeah. 

Raylene Bellottie: May I just mention, Bec, one thing that you really need to touch on is when we are doing all these negotiations, we need help with the power imbalance. We cannot have these bigwigs flying into town with all their heavy lawyers sitting down at a table with many of our people. Without understanding all the economics of this big project. That's been happening far too long, where there's been a big power imbalance, and the pushing, pushing, pushing to get this project happening. So that's going to be really important as well. How do we make sure that we get that support? When these proposals are coming towards us, and helping us navigate ourselves through them as well. It's been happening forever and a day, and that really has to be looked at and supported for us Aboriginal people. 

Bec Blurton: Agreed. There's one more question here, and I've got to hand back to Sherryl as well. But quickly, Greg, that's a great question. COP31 has a strong chance of being in Australia. I feel like Australia especially, has a really great chance to spotlight all the incredible things that First Nations people in our country are doing. Things like Firesticks, who are doing cultural burning, when it comes to climate change and mitigating. Things like the Desert Alliance. We've invested in Aboriginal rangers all over the country who are doing amazing work. I think things like policy development. We're trying to come up with innovative solutions that prioritise First Nations rights and interests and back to the Sustainable Finance Taxonomy. We're the first country globally; there are about 50 globally, we were the first to include First Nations criteria.

So I think we have a brilliant, huge opportunity to spotlight all the great stuff that is First Nations-led and owned and how we are supporting and elevating the First Peoples of this country..

Sherryl Reddy: Thanks so much, Bec, Tyson, and Raylene for such an honest, critical, and frank conversation and call to action. A necessary call to action for the social enterprise sector and for all businesses. I had so many takeaways. A few of the key ones around corporate behaviour and director accountability has to change. That the opportunity is there for business to be good partners with First Nations peoples and communities to co-design with Aboriginal leadership, Aboriginal ownership and an ongoing inclusive relationship. I really loved your call to action that we have to think about the whole picture, take a holistic view beyond that short-term fix, and we need to consider wellbeing for the social ecology as well as the natural ecology. Raylene, you spoke with such power around ensuring equity of access for First Nations people, and ensuring that they're at the table from the beginning of a project and through every stage of it.

Thank you, and mountains of gratitude to all of you. Thanks to everyone who took the time to join us. We really appreciate your time, your interest in this conversation, and your commitment to turning this learning into action. Thank you.