Transcript: Agents of Change: Insights from First Nations Social Enterprise Leaders

Music playing for opening of session: Banbirrngu (The Orchestral Sessions) by Gurrumul.

Sherryl Reddy: Hello, everyone. It's wonderful to see so many of you joining today's open learning session. Hosted by The Land Back Foundation with two incredible agents of change, Tara Croker and Laura Thomson, in conversation with Birdy Bird.

My name is Sherryl Reddy and it's a real privilege on behalf of Social Enterprise Australia to be in this Zoom room with the legends that are Tara, Laura and Birdy. We really appreciate your generosity and care in sharing your wisdom and knowledge with us today.

For the audience members, this is the second learning gift that The Land Back Foundation has shared as part of the Social Enterprise Development Initiative. If you missed the first session, I really encourage you to view the recording on Understorey. It's a beautiful conversation with another two social enterprise leaders, Madonna Thomson and Adam Byrne. It's all about trust, time and community as central to doing business on Country. 

I appreciate this opportunity to acknowledge the Traditional Custodians and original care holders of the unceded lands we're all joining from today. I'm joining from the lands of the Wodi Wodi people on Dharawal Country and I recognise their deep connection to lands, waters, skies and culture. I honour the living knowledges of Elders, past and present and I pay respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander participants joining today. I know that your presence here holds over 65,000 years of systems thinking and relational care for people and planet.

Everyone here today is in some way connected with the social enterprise sector or curious about it. We know that a core intention of business development and capability development in the social enterprise space is putting people and planet first and being guided by values of collaboration, equity and justice.

Many of us, including the team at Social Enterprise Australia, are grappling with the challenges of how we bring this to life across our business operations. How do we do this deeply, relationally and with integrity? How do we be good advocates, allies and practitioners making these values real in our everyday work? So with that challenge in mind, it's an absolute pleasure to hand over to Birdy, Tara and Laura. Over to you. 

Birdy Bird: Thanks so much Sherryl, and thanks to the SEA team, both whom you can see and whom you can't see in the background who are dealing with the technology that is online learning sessions.

I am dialling in from Yuggera Country on the south side of the Brisbane River. Meanjin or Meeanjin, depending on where you're at in terms of place names. I encourage everybody to make sure that they're all over what Country they're on. We don't have the chat open today for you to put your place names in, but I encourage you to think about that right now in terms of whose Country you are dialling in from.

I would like to acknowledge all Aboriginal business, past, present and for the business people who are still considering going into business, as a way of being and as a way of knowing and as a way that has always been. We look at business in colonial terms at the moment and that's quite different to how business may be viewed from First Nations people's terms and from community terms. 

I acknowledge my Country, I want to acknowledge my ancestors, which are English, Irish and Welsh. Both arriving here by boat as convicts and as settlers. We colonised Country and its people and its culture by taking up land as property owners, as farmers, and as business people and early entrepreneurs selling those spoils. I am the inheritor of that privilege, and part of that is why I do the work that I have been doing my whole life and with The Land Back Foundation today. It's about having honest conversations around privilege, honest conversations around wealth and going back to the core ask, which has always been to have land back.

Obviously, that's a complex conversation and we're not going to do that today. But, put some framing around why I'm here. My family colonised the lands of the Wonnarua people, Birpai people, and areas around Tinonee, as well as in northern New South Wales, around the northern rivers and the big scrub area as red cedar cutters and red cedar dealers. We felled as a family and sold as a family some of the richest resources that that land had to offer at the time. 

I'll be moderating today's session. It's an open conversation and I invite Gunditjmara woman Laura Thomson from Clothing The Gaps and Wiradjuri Yinna Tara Croker from Yaala Sparkling, to introduce themselves.

Firstly, before we head into some of today's topics around business and allyship and what it might mean to bring stronger words around allyship or activism, particularly in these weeks leading up to Reconciliation Week and NAIDOC Week.

So, Tara, maybe if you'd like to go. 

Tara Croker: Absolutely. Thank you, and Yaama everyone. Which in my language means good day. Like Birdy said I'm a proud Wiradjuri woman, also raised in Meanjin on Yuggera and Turrbal Country and in the Northern Territory as well. But dialling in today from Gadigal.

A little bit of background about me. My career has been as a Marketing Manager working for companies like YouTube, Google and News Corp in the corporate space. Through that career, I've had a passion for giving back to nature, to community, to people. I did that through sitting on reconciliation committee, leading First Nations employee resource groups at those companies and sitting on advisory boards and mentoring young mob as well.

I think that passion is probably what led me to found Yaala Sparkling. So Yaala, we create premium healthy native flavoured sparkling waters. Yaala in my language means present. So it's all about bringing the ancient flavours of our land to the present moment so that people can enjoy it in a modern way.

With Yaala we have two missions. The first is to increase First Nations representation in the Native food industry. I think early on in the journey, starting out in business, I learned about the representation of First Nations people in the Native food industry being less than 2% ownership across the entire supply chain. When I first learned that, it did really surprise me because the knowledge of using these plants in the first place is coming from our people and yet none of the economic benefit is returning to where that comes from. So we aim to change that. 

The second mission for us is to just connect people through beautiful positive products, to our native plants, our culture and the authentic story behind the plants that we use.

So the journey to date has been just over two years since launching and working on the product R&D [Research & Development] for about a year and a half before that. So still early days in business years but we've come a long way in a short time.

We were fortunate enough to appear on Shark Tank early on in the journey, which really helped to talk about Indigenous business and issues in the native food industry on a mainstream platform. And then also just to amplify our brand and our mission and message.

Since then we've become a multi-award winning brand. Really proud of that. I've co-authored a book, called Women Living Fearlessly, and obviously left my corporate career and focus on the business full time now and continuing that journey for building the brand.

Birdy Bird: Thank you, Tara. Amazing story, and more to come. Over to you Laura. 

Laura Thomson: Hi, my name's Laura. I'm a Gunditjmara woman, but I was born and raised in Collingwood and Fitzroy. My family were influential in starting the first Aboriginal Health Service, in Fitzroy. So, even though I was a Gunditjmara woman, I didn't grow up on Country. I grew up with lots of mob, in the cities, in community-controlled spaces.

What do I do? Usually, I ask people to put their hand up if they've bought Clothing The Gap, but I can't see anyone. Okay, there's a couple of you. Great. Because it's been quite a journey. We started in 2009. We make merch with a message.

I guess I'm a very visual person, so I just want to start by talking about what I'm wearing at the moment. Which is a scarf that I've made for the Michael Long Foundation, The Long Walk. You can buy this from the website, but it's actually not about the scarf. As we were chatting I was actually reading what is The Long Walk? I feel like when we talk about allyship, that's what we're on together, that it is a long walk and that Michael Long is the epitome of that when he walked from Melbourne to Canberra for First Nations justice. 

In some ways, I'm wearing this, I'm thinking it's so appropriate because it is such a long walk between Indigenous and non-Indigenous people. And somewhere along the way, I found myself telling those stories through fashion. Most of the time it's through campaigning and developing merch with a message that we make at Clothing The Gaps.

I very rarely talk about it like that, but I was just thinking the work Michael Long does, talking about shared responsibility and his openness of everyone's welcome around the campfire. That kind of language I hope sets the work that we can do together as social enterprises and I guess the way that we show up in this space as well.

Birdy Bird: Thanks, Laura. One of the questions or prompts that I wanted to put in front of this conversation is; I've been involved in social enterprise for probably 15 years and watched it develop from its very nascent days as a space in Australia. A lot of things have changed over those years. There's a lot more tools out there available, a lot more support out there available for people to get advice about business structures. What's happening now, more and more, are conversations around measurement and evaluation. You know, whether social enterprises are reporting to a body like B Corp, or People and Planet First and then how they choose to do their social accountability piece.

There's so many different forms out there. There's people who are number-crunching, I imagine their spreadsheets are overwhelming, and doing social return on impact and doing cost-benefit analysis, and looking at how they can report on their impact to their customers, their stakeholders, their consumers, in a way that maintains the level of transparency, accountability and trust that businesses in the social enterprise sector strive for. You know it is your social license which in a lot of ways is your business license. 

A lot of these things however can be done at arm's length from the communities that those social enterprises perhaps work with. Obviously, the different business models permit somebody just donating money to a charity at one end of it or actually having embedded practices, policies and procedures right through their business and also the design of the business or co-design of the business with First Nations people might be the case.

I think Tara you held up a tissue box from Yarn'n, who are an Indigenous supplier making toilet tissue and tissues. And that's a collaboration between a non-Indigenous man and an Indigenous man. So having a look at how those two worlds in a business choose to do accountability and impact reporting is one thing. But I just wondered how it is different for you each irrespectively in your business and why accountability is important in terms of stepping outside perhaps those traditional social enterprise tools?

Maybe, Laura, you want to jump in on that one? 

Laura Thomson: Yeah. I was chatting with Tara about this the other day about how do we report on the impact? Is probably one of the biggest challenges that we have and I think that's why these accreditations are really important for Clothing The Gaps.

I'm pretty sure we're certified with People Planet First, but we're certified with B Corp and Supply Nation. So I really feel like these certifications allow us to express that we are doing these things because often, you know, as mob and when it's part of your community you're so far in the work that it's actually hard to talk about the impact that you're making.

We are accountable every day, first and foremost to the Aboriginal Community. We have this saying at Clothing The Gaps, so it sort of goes, “We've got mob in our heart and everyone else in mind”, and that accountability piece, in fact, starts with accountability to my Aunties and my Elders and my family.

I think if you get that right then it flows on to the rest of the Aboriginal Community and everyone else. And if you speak to mob, if you're not doing what you say you're doing, you know about it pretty quickly. So I feel like in lots of ways as Aboriginal social enterprises we're held to the highest level of account. Especially at Clothing The Gap, we do political fashion, we've got lots of supporters and community online so it's quite easy to see if we're not going in the right direction. And how, if we're not measuring our accountability in our traditional impact ways. Some of the ways I think we can hold ourselves to account is by actually looking at some of those other measures and saying well, how many people have written those letters to their MPs? How many have signed a petition? How many educational blogs have we written? How many Indigenous people have we employed? 

That advocacy work. Our latest campaign, it's not our latest, it's one that we've gotten behind since October, on the back of the first year of the referendum. The anniversary of the failed referendum might add. What's that action that people are going to take? So we put a petition behind our Not A Date To Celebrate campaign. We've had 70,000 people sign that petition now or over 100 businesses back that. That's part of the work that we're doing at Clothing The Gaps, I guess as a social enterprise in line with our values to advocate and educate and celebrate First Nations people.

Birdy Bird: Great. Tara. 

Tara Croker: Obviously shared sentiment on the fact that I'm not just representing a brand, I'm representing family, mob, cultural responsibilities and every decision I make is grounded in all of that and the values behind that. So, does it uplift our people? Does it honour Country? Is it aligning with the responsibility that way? We have to protect and elevate our people collectively. So, that is kind of a guiding light behind business decisions that I think is something different that we consider as small business. 

Suppliers I work with, businesses I partner with, I'm making sure that they share the same values as us and if they don't then you know, see it as an educational opportunity or walk away if it doesn't sit right. 

I feel that we're not just accountable to our businesses and our business growth but also to the legacy that we want to build and pass on to the next generation coming through. So for us the way that we maintain that accountability is being really connected to community. So yarning regularly to anyone, anyone that we work with, our suppliers, mob, all through our business. In particular, helping to build our supplier's capabilities and collectively grow together as our business moves forward. So, I think the accountability is different within our business in that we definitely see it as part of our guiding light in our decision-making based on the values that come from being mob really.

Birdy Bird: Yeah, that's lovely. So, I hear really strong connection to family and community, and I hear two perhaps different examples of the advocacy piece for the amount of activity that Clothing The Gap are doing around those key dates and key issues, key campaigns. And then Tara the depth that the threads perhaps go into your supply chain in terms of, if I'm going to grow and I'm going to scale then I'm going to need my supply chain to grow and scale and I have a responsibility to maintain strong connection and support around how to do that.

I think a lot of people take a supply chain for granted. A lot of the time in business it's a somewhat disconnected relationship, and I think there's a definite learning there for people to understand that supporting a supply chain is supporting your business. And how could you do that, maybe in a higher touch way in the businesses that it might suit?

Thank you. Two great examples. 

The next question is around activism and obviously, we're in the lead-up to Reconciliation Week at the end of this month and then NAIDOC Week following shortly after in July.

One of the reflections I've had around that over years and years and years of watching it, is that I see a lot of allies or business allies spike in activity in terms of sharing public commentary. There's a lot more of it out there. Having their morning teas, having their lunches, their activities around this time of year seems to be, you know, it's big. You can't miss it. But then one of the questions I have for all those people is what about the rest of the year?

Being an ally for one week a year, or around the 26th of January, around those key dates is actually quite easy because you're fed information to bounce off. You know, it's easy to share other people's commentary. But I wonder how, in terms of our own mental models and our own narratives in our businesses, how we can be more consistent around our activism or around our allyship throughout the year? So that we are carrying a more consistent load and taking that cultural load on as businesses and allies.

So, I wonder what stops people from doing that. I'm interested in your opinions. Do you think people are scared of doing that? Because it's their voice in a much more open field, as opposed to a very busy field where you can feel quite easily surrounded by people who are on the same wavelength or worldview as you are. Do you think that as businesses being allies, people maybe sit on their hands a little bit more because they're really concerned about blowback or financial repercussions for their business, around being more public allies? Whoever would like to.

Laura Thomson: I'll go. I was thinking activists, it's become almost like a dirty word. So before we jumped on, I thought I'm just going to  have a look at the definition of an activist, and it's someone who takes action to bring around social, political, cultural or environmental change. Like, oh, that's something we should all be. So if someone asks you if you're an activist. Say, yes, that's me. And I think that's what we all want to be, be working towards.

I feel the same frustration you feel around the key dates and where we see more engagement with non-Indigenous people. We see it actually in the spike of sales at Clothing The Gaps. Our key dates aren't Christmas and Mother's Day, ours are Jan 26th, NAIDOC Week, Reconciliation Week, Jan 26. So it's actually true, right? There's no use being overly frustrated about it.

But how we harness that engagement at that time and encourage people to take those actions all the time? I sent a newsletter, a Reconciliation newsletter, and when you buy from Clothing The Gaps, we ask you to identify if you're Aboriginal, Torres Strait Islander or non-Indigenous. One of the reasons we do it, and a great example of when that was absolutely useful, was I sent that newsletter, for any of the people that do marketing, to our engaged audience. Had opened a newsletter in the last 90 days and then I subtracted from that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I was like, they don't really need this because at the end of the day Reconciliation Week isn't about mob, it's about non-Indigenous people, so they didn't need that newsletter. Tagging our customers like that is perfect. 

And what we asked was when you're having your reconciliation, we call it cupcake or your cup of tea, think about what actions you're going to take and what you're willing to step into. Our specific ask was that, and you know there's so many asks, there are so many issues around First Nations justice that people can step into, what we're campaigning for is Not A Date To Celebrate. What we're looking for is businesses to show their public support for the campaign by sharing their logo with us.

Doesn't seem like a lot, but it's actually really scary for a lot of organisations and certainly retailers to do it requires a level of brand bravery because like you said, Birdy, they're worried that that's going to impact on their profits at the end of the year if they stand for something. This is where we start to really move from being what we call an ally into being an accomplice where you're actually willing to, not just support First Nations issues but actually work to dismantle those systems. And some of those means being uncomfortable and some of it means being upfront, but actually when we do that as a collective we can see that change. 

We were fortunate enough, and this is why I'm in fashion, I continue to stay in fashion, is we led the Free The Flag campaign. And we were able to actually see the flag being free from the copyright that it was within. That was through self-determination through business and allies actually getting on board and doing the work.

So yeah, activism isn't a dirty word. We just have to take those next meaningful actions that come with it and we can, I've seen the change ourselves, through that.

Tara Croker: I definitely see myself as an activist, 100%, and I also see Yaala Sparkling as contributing to activism. And that's because being a First Nations-owned, female-led, values-driven company is rare. It kind of is radical. It's new. We are disrupting the norms in the industry that we're playing in. So we're certainly the only business doing what we do with cultural storytelling and connection at the center of our products and brand in our industry.

I definitely am reminded often by my mentors that I have to see myself as an activist and that I am because we are showing up in a different way and we talk about inclusion, representation and self-determination by taking back some of that space that's been, typically not us, in that space that we should be in.

I think challenging the norms and aligning to the definition that you mentioned before on activism Laura. We definitely do fit within that and are proud of that. And so I use the brand to challenge perceptions of what an Indigenous business looks like and show up in spaces that maybe we typically weren't in. I think we do a lot within the business that's not necessarily loud and out there and activist in some ways but I think internally and with the ways that we do business, operate and show up is definitely a form of activism.

And I think the comment around the times of years that we as Indigenous businesses may be considered more, which is yes, those key dates, Reconciliation Week, NAIDOC Week. It would be wonderful if we could be seen as BAU products because we are, we're a beautiful healthy soft drink. While we do spike in those times, I don't see any reason why we can't be available at any other event that organisations are holding throughout the year and I would love to get to a point where we're not seen as an outlier or Indigenous product. 

I always say my big, hairy, audacious goal is to be the true drink of Australia.

Like Aperol is to Italy or Bintang is to Bali, where people celebrate it, embrace it, and it's part of the culture. I would really love to see Yaala be that for Australia because I think they are, beautiful, authentic, and true ways to show the land and the culture. I think if we could celebrate that at all times of year, that would be a huge step forward and amazing to see. 

Tara Thomson: I'm all excited about this vision, Tara.

You're right, it is activism in itself when you're buying, for some people, when they're buying Blak products. Unfortunately, there's sections of the community that would hate to see an Indigenous brand like yours be the national drink of Australia. So, you're so right, just the mere fact that people are choosing to buy Blak and that we've got Aboriginal business now is activism in this country.

Birdy Bird: Yeah. Let's all go for Yaala as a part of our national identity. And let's all try and smooth out, well not smooth out by raising the peaks, but raise the troughs in the Clothing The Gaps sales, so that, we don't see, and I imagine your graph would look potentially similar, Tara, in that people are having their Reconciliation Week events and they're buying cases of Yaala Sparkling to say, hey, we're doing this the most authentic way by having this drink. But then does the drink sit in their fridge for the rest of the year for the staff to have? Or do they default back to something else for their knock off drinks? 

Again, this is about bringing forward this activism conversation in a way that is consistent and considered. Rather than inconsistent and driven by perhaps, optics. I'll say it for what it is. Is it better optics for you to have Blak products on your shelf or on your shirt or in your fridge at certain times of year? Or actually, is it better for our national identity, and we'll bring it back to that again, Tara, to have these things, every day of the year in a much more even mix?

So let's go with that as a big prompt, in this session: how can social enterprises or social businesses look at the first thing they can do to participate more strongly in First Nations justice every day?

But how can these businesses, organisations, and individuals step in without the problematic positioning that can happen? Quite often, we see people do something for the first time. It feels great, they get really good feedback from it, and all of a sudden they know they're locked on. But they do it in such a way that they're centring themselves without keeping perhaps an active eye on the fact that the whole purpose of that is to be able to centre First Nations businesses, and that can become and look very transactional to First Nations peoples.

That they're just doing it, again for the optics, and perhaps not spending the time understanding that it is a very long journey and that it's a very long journey of deep listening that's required to operate and to stay in that space. I just wonder what does it look like for you when people approach you with a transactional approach? Is that a complete, no, no? Is it something that you just go, we're just going to take it because it's low-hanging fruit, and we'll try and build on it later?

How does that relational approach look to you in terms of how perhaps the people in this room today might want to enter into conversations with you, business to business or business person to business person?

Tara Croker: Yeah, I think for me it's definitely long-term relationships over short-term outcomes. And that is exactly what we were just talking about. So, show up consistently, spend the time to reach out, have a conversation, and go beyond the key dates of the year.

Some of the most amazing allies that I've had amplify our brand message so they'll share our posts, they'll open up their networks, they'll connect me to different people in procurement or all of that sort of stuff. They'll also share their learnings within their business. They'll spend time with me doing that. 

They'll think creatively as well I think. So going beyond that transactional piece, seeing a product like ours, being a drink that sits in a fridge. Maybe that's not something that you do within your organisation, but what else could you do with the resources that your organisation has to help us? Maybe that's an editorial or an event that you're doing where you're doing a giveaway, and we could potentially be that giveaway. Thinking creatively, outside the box, I think, and you get that from coming into the conversation with a long-term relationship in mind. 

So that would probably be the key things for me. And obviously buying from Blak businesses and paying them properly is the other thing. I get approached quite often about providing drinks for free from organisations you would not think would ask that. So I think making sure that you value our products and our services and have that conversation on how you can support, how we can work together and how our products and services may fit into your model and be a win-win relationship.

Laura Thomson: That was great, Tara. So many practical examples as well, I think it helps really explain what... What was the word that we were talking about? I guess what allyship, what good allyship looks like and what good allyship doesn't look like.

I think for us, and I think it's for a lot of mob, true allyship moves at the speed of trust, and I don't really trust. It's one of my things. It takes a long time, I think mob are the same, we're building trust for years before we work together. I think that would be the same for mob too, because I guess when you’re mob, and in other places that I work, people knew my mum, my grandmother, my great-grandmother. So when you come into this other, this is what I found personally when I stepped into business, I didn't know everyone and how they were related to each other, so it takes me a while.

I find that when I want to do business, I want to get personal. I want to know what you believe in. And I actually want to know, and this was my tip for really finding out what someone believes in really quickly, because I've made these mistakes before, was to ask about their marketing plan. What do you post on Jan 26th? What did you post in the lead-up to the referendum? Forget the RAP, forget all the rest of the conversations, I just had to ask that, and I knew whether or not we were going to be working together or not. That was key to me. These conversations are pretty quick for me. If I say to them, Hey, what's your stand on Raise The Age? Would you post about that? And if they would say no, I'm like, well, you're a great person, but I don't think we're values aligned to continue to work, that we can continue to work together. So that's been an easy way for me to really decide who's in and out pretty quickly.

I will say that there's a lot of people that want to help. And they'll often ask to help and say, hey, we'll come and pack orders, or we'll fold T-shirts. I'll be like, I pay people for that, I don't need your help there. Well-intentioned,  but not useful. And some of the best acts of allyship have been when, exactly what Tara said, they speak creatively or they actually use the skill set that they've got. 

I had a lawyer work pro bono for me, from FAL Lawyers, Peter Francis, absolute legend.

He didn't count his hours. We're on this journey together. He was as invested as I was in that. And he will say that that was one of the most iconic moments in his life, and we did that together. He was an ally. He didn't call himself that, often allies don't call themselves allies, PS. They're just doing the work. I don't know if I should have said that. But that's what I found is that the people that I've worked with and done deep work with, they've been in this space for a very, very long, long time. And they get it. They've built those relationships and trust.

So, yeah, I think I'll just leave it there. But they're long-term, respectful relationships.

Birdy Bird: Yeah, really, really interesting that you bring up who gets to call themselves an ally, or how does that word allyship come about? And makes me reflect on the fact that it really doesn't, you know, calling yourself that is neither here nor there. It's just a point in time, or it's a moment in your business life or your business week where you might have done something. But the real grit is the showing up every day. It's that consistency. It's that holding on and maintaining relationships and deepening relationships and deepening your personal knowledge and sitting in the hard spaces that allies or non-First Nations people can find themselves when they're grappling with truth.

Laura Thomson: Sorry Birdy. A verb is a doing word, isn't it? 

Birdy Bird: Yes, yes. 

Laura Thomson: Sorry, I'm going back to primary school. But for me, that's what an adjective is. Sorry, not an adjective, an ally. 

Birdy Bird: Ally. 

Laura Thomson: Ally is a verb. Allyship is a verb. It's something you do.

It's not like a noun that you're an ally. It's an active thing that you're engaged in all the time.

Birdy Bird: So if you're not being active, perhaps take that hat off, until you can be and perhaps wait until somebody else identifies you as such. To go into a public arena with mob and for them to say this person is an ally, that's fair enough then. I think mob can make that call. But I'm quite uncomfortable in terms of non-mob making that call about themselves because it's just like Oh, okay, really? How do we know that? How do we see that?

Like you said, Laura, you've got your good questions that you're asking to work out values alignment. And a lot of it is values alignment and there's so many issues around First Nations justice, whether that is about incarceration, whether that is around policing, whether that is around key dates like Australia Day being celebrated as national or national identity days, whether that be around land justice, housing justice, food justice, water justice, health justice, education justice. You might have particular threads that you pull out of that, and you hang on to them; they're your threads. But encourage people to pull down on all threads and learn what they can across the entire continuum.

And also encourage people to flip the narrative around these, not First Nations issues. In the sense that deficit thinking can, or deficit language can come into the conversation or into your mind very quickly. These are colonial issues. These are colonial structures. These are white people problems. We've created white systems and white problems that the result of that creation and the upholding of those systems and the continuing action in those systems is what creates the negative impact on, and outcomes for First Nations Peoples. 

So really being able to flip that around and not come at it from a charity mindset, perhaps, or a white saviour, I hate to say it, but it's very, very, very prevalent, and come at it from, actually, this is my problem, and I need to step into it. Because I have power, because I have privilege, because I have a platform. And a business is a platform. You're all sitting on platforms, whether it be as individuals or as businesses, and you can use that to shine a light in places that encourage brave conversations. And that's, you know, a big part of what we're doing here today as well. Thank you. 

They're sort of the main questions that I had around looking at those issues. Was there anything else, Tara or Laura, that you wanted to bring forward? Anything that's coming up in your businesses that you'd like people to know about? And then we'll just see if there's any Q&As come through from the audience today. 

Maybe treaty in Victoria, Laura. I don't know. I know there's things that are boiling away in the background. 

Tara Croker: Yeah. You go, Laura.

Laura Thomson: Oh, no, treaty Victoria is a big conversation. We want to see action first, I guess. It would be interesting to see what that looks like. I know they're in negotiations at the moment, so it's a big topic, I think, with mob as well.

Birdy Bird: I think the winding up of the Europe Justice Commission is happening now. The final report is being written as we speak, or edited as we speak, and is due on the doorstep of Victorian Parliament on the 30th of June. It will be walked from where? Is it Portland? So for anybody in Victoria, you can join the Walk for Truth, I think it's called, or The Long Walk, perhaps it's called. There's lots of legs along there and lots of points of pause, and reflection, where there'll be a lot of community engagement and a lot of activity going on over the next month.

You can follow them on all of the social media channels as well, just to see if there's an opportunity to go and engage and listen. I think a lot of it is about putting down what they've picked up, over the last four years. And they've picked up a lot over the last four years. And the opportunity to perhaps walk and put that down is relevant to carrying that load. For those commissioners, particularly for the last four years. 

Anything coming up for you, Tara?

Tara Croker: Yeah, for me. Oh yeah, so much in terms of events and things like that.

But in terms of this forum, and doing a shameless plug and call to action. I think, for me, I'm yet to come across an Aboriginal business that doesn't have a social impact or meaning beyond profit. So I think for this audience, just thinking creatively about, well not even creatively sometimes, just integrating Aboriginal businesses and the services and products that we have within your business as usual activities, I think, makes all the difference and helps to create that sort of circular economy to bring First Nations businesses opportunities. And if anybody needs any healthy sparkling waters, then absolutely get in touch with us.

Laura Thomson: Thanks Tara. We did a case study for the Closing the Gap report last year. And one of that was on economic independence as a marker for closing the gap.

So, when lots of people might say, well, in and of itself, Aboriginal businesses are helping closing the gap through intergenerational wealth, and we know that we're 100 times more likely to employ Aboriginal people in our spaces. So it's a great point, yeah, where we choose to spend our dollar and who we choose to buy for, can go so much further when we choose to buy from Aboriginal businesses and social enterprises.

Tara Croker: Absolutely.

Birdy Bird: So we've got a reflection from the audience, which is talking about currently thinking about our calendar of ally activity support beyond the National Reconciliation Week and NAIDOC dates. Reflecting on it is really useful. But do you guys have any frameworks or way of thinking about how people can integrate things into their calendar?

Is it something that you just try and do every week? Or is it more pointy than that in terms of how people might engage more consistently throughout the year? 

Laura Thomson: Practical example: people might want to say Can you come talk to us during Reconciliation Week? I'll just say no or especially during NAIDOC Week, because I think NAIDOC Week's for mob to enjoy our time with Community. And I've, for the last few years, booked myself out, and I've just felt really depleted and ripped off, actually. 

So I'll put that back onto the organisations and actually explain, hey, this is our week. I feel like I've been sucked up for entertaining non-Indigenous people and educating them during the week that was meant to be for us. What would it look like if you had it, God forbid, in September? You know, book me in September, please book me in April. I'm free. And just challenge them. I actually feel like most of those conversations go down really well. I think when people get that we can have these conversations all year round, and actually, we're busy during those weeks, we're already booked out. But please book us on these other times as well.

I'm just trying to think. Tara, you have anything to add? 

Tara Croker: Yeah, I think talking about that sort of sourcing. Something I used to hear in my roles working in reconciliation with RAPs and things like sourcing. And continuing on what we were talking about and thinking about sourcing suppliers as BAU at all times of the year. I think perhaps there's a way you can set KPIs around that. Maybe if you're getting a quote for a project, make sure that one of the three quotes that you get is from an Indigenous supplier. 

I think something that I hear a lot is that maybe we don't exist in certain spaces, and I would invite you to just take a look at Supply Nation's database or come to Supply Nation Connect and see the diversity of Indigenous businesses that actually do exist in this country. From solar cleaning to scuba diving to native food product. It will blow your mind how much we are really across so many different industries. Maybe there's something that you can implement practically within your business that is ensuring that an Indigenous business is being considered.

Laura Thomson: I find it a hard question to answer because once you dip your toe into First Nations justice and learning about and connecting with Aboriginal people. There's just so many things to do. All year round. Like we just had the Yirramboi Festival here in Naarm, and there was incredible plays to see. Choose to watch Aboriginal films, read Aboriginal books, and follow Aboriginal people on your social media. And certainly there's no shortage of content you can consume and education, and stuff to do, to support. Yeah.

Birdy Bird: Thank you. So yeah, multipronged. Supply chain, everybody jump on it, shift it around, set some KPIs, increase your spend with First Nations businesses all year round.

Gifting time and skills was the other one that I heard in there. If you're a lawyer or an accountant or you have a service-based business that you want to throw in whatever it is, two hours a week, two hours a month, certain amount of days, and also consider gifting it to your staff members. I think that businesses that embed that through their entire structure, and it's a policy where each staff member is actually given a total of one day a year or two days a year to be able to gift to, you know, to whatever their causes are. But obviously, considering First Nations causes are our conversation today. 

The other one is looking for opportunities for partnerships, you know, where the win-win is there for both sides and entering into relational conversations early in terms of expectations of a partnership.

I also encourage people who are in events where they're talking to mob and they have that little glimmer of, this is something that could go somewhere, follow up, follow up quickly, have the next conversation quickly, build on that relationship. Don't let it die in the woods over the next week or two weeks. Show up and show up regularly. And if you don't hear back, that's okay, just prompt again a couple of weeks later. And if you don't hear back, okay, then that might be one that goes through to the keeper. But do take up those opportunities as best you can and as soon as you can, I think. 

We're coming close to the end of our hour together. Shameless plugs for Clothing The Gap. Jump online and buy all of the merch all of the year round. Buy it for your kids, buy jarmies, buy scarves, buy beanies, buy all the things.

And encourage, Tara, where can people buy at Yaala if they want to just have a taste?

Where are the outlets where Yaala is available? 

Tara Croker: Yeah, absolutely. So you can jump on our website, you can also purchase on Amazon, Dan Murphy's online get sent directly to your door and you can try all of our flavours. 

Birdy Bird: Fantastic. Add alcoholic other things as is your want, but get amongst it. And then if you have an opportunity to feedback on today's session, we would welcome immediate feedback. We welcome slow and considered reflections as well to be able to share with everybody who's been in the room today. And on that note, I'll pass back to you, Sherryl. 

Laura Thomson: Thanks Birdy.

Sherryl Reddy: Thanks Birdy and thanks Laura and Tara. I really appreciate everything you've shared with us today. Often, I find, I feel like just saying thank you at the end of such an incredibly generous hour of story and conversation isn't enough. It feels very inadequate in terms of the gratitude for what you've shared. So I guess I want to say, beyond thank you for the stories you've shared with us and for the story that each of you lives with such deep passion for people and planet and such deep care for community.

I hope everyone online today walks away with a beyond-thanks action that turns something we've learned into something we do in the different places and spaces where we hold power, where we hold responsibility and where we hold opportunity.

I loved the takeaway that activism isn't a dirty word. It's taking the next meaningful action and moving beyond the optics, going beyond those key dates of the year, valuing Blak products and integrating Aboriginal products and services into our business as usual.

Also really appreciate all of your reflections Tara, Laura and Birdy on the importance of building long-term, trust-based, respectful relationships that are committed to the real grit of justice. Deepening relationships and sitting in those hard, vulnerable spaces as a way to collectively grow together. And to grow together as different businesses move forward.

Love that call to action that we're all sitting on platforms where we can encourage brave conversations and brave action. 

So in closing, thank you everyone who took the time to join us today and we also want to say a huge thank you to the federal Department of Social Services who are supporting the development of Understorey and these learning communities.

Thank you in particular to the team behind the scenes who bring these sessions, into being; Caragh, Megan, Athanasia, Liz, Raylee, Christina from Social Enterprise Australia, and the team from Social Services. 

Finally, huge thanks, Tara, Laura and Birdy.

Have a great day, everyone.