Transcript: A Learning Resource for Mob Engaging with the Social Enterprise Sector

Music: Black Smoke by Emily Wurramara Black Smoke - Emily Wurramara

• Facilitator: Mundanara Bayles, BlackCard
• Participants: Dr Gaala Watson, Renai Mouton, Kylie Penehoe, Carly Forrest
• Host: Sherryl Reddy, Social Enterprise Australia

Mundanara Bayles: All right, I think that is my cue to come off mute and to welcome everybody to this deadly yarn that we're going to have here today with some deadly sisters of mine.

On that note, I'm joining you from the unceded lands of the Gurang, Gooreng Gooreng, Bailai, and Taribelang Bunda. Four groups that are part of the Bundaberg region in terms of the Traditional Owners of this land, and I'm looking at the beautiful Burnett River.

Whilst I join you today, I'd also like to extend my acknowledgement to Traditional Owners of where each and every one of you are Zooming in from, right across this country.

Thank you so much for giving up an hour out of your busy schedules to be part of this conversation. It is recorded, so just be mindful. And it will be available online later on Understorey for people to access for those that couldn't join us.

The Social Enterprise Development Initiative, the SEDI Open Learning Community, invites social enterprise actors to contribute to a growing community of systems change makers, working to create equitable, just and regenerative futures for people, place and planet. It provides a space where knowledge, stories, skills and experiences from across the social enterprise community are shared through days like this, online webinars, conversations and forums by, for, and with social enterprise actors.

My name is Mundanara Bayles and I am the co-founder of BlackCard. We were quite lucky to be a successful recipient in winning a grant. It's the second grant in our 13 years of running a business. It's the second grant that we've ever applied for, and it was a really important grant for us as a community in terms of Aboriginal people.

I can't speak on behalf of Torres Strait Islander people because I'm an Aboriginal woman, but I am going to be using terminology Aboriginal, First Nations and Indigenous, and I am including all peoples that identify as Indigenous to this land now known as Australia.

So we had an idea at BlackCard. BlackCard is a training consulting business and delivers cultural capability training to all sectors of society, all peoples from all walks of life. We saw a gap within the social enterprise sector. We saw a gap in terms of cultural capability, lacking understanding of cultural knowledge systems, of Aboriginal terms of reference. Aboriginal ways of knowing, being, and doing is often used to describe Aboriginal knowledge systems based on Aboriginal perspectives and experiences.

So our grant application at the start was to develop a resource for the social enterprise sector to better engage with First Nations peoples. We were thinking of a cultural protocols document. A cultural protocols document wouldn't be the be-all and end-all of how to engage with different communities across this country, including the Torres Strait. But it was something, a document that could sit on Understorey, a resource that people could go to and see some guidelines. See that different Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have different ways of engaging. Their country is different, their stories are different, their experiences are different. So you have to acknowledge that and respect that as you navigate different Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities.

So we put an expression of interest out, and we did have quite a number of people apply. We held a formal interview process to understand not just Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people's identity and lived experience, but were they subject matter experts? What expertise did they have within the social enterprise sector, as well as bringing their lived experience and their Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture to this learning community? They needed to have that experience within navigating or operating or working in a social enterprise.

At the start we did have two men that did apply, so I've got to let any men know that there were men at the start. They did drop off. We had a deadly fella by the name of Dion Devow who identifies as both Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and he also ticked the box for being in the ACT (Australian Capital Territory). So what was important is that we had representation from both Indigenous groups, that we had male and female contributors, and we also wanted to have a national footprint.

Then we got the community together. Everyone got on a call. We had our first meeting, and then the conversation started to shift to where we ended in terms of developing a resource for Mob. Not a resource for the sector, for mainly non-Indigenous people, to learn how to engage with us. A resource for our Mob to be able to navigate the sector.

For example, BlackCard, we're a Pty Ltd (Proprietary Limited), but are we a social enterprise? I've always had that in my head. Yes, we are, but no, we're not. Are we profit for purpose?

So instead of going to all different websites trying to gather this information, and gather the latest or updated information, this resource is for Mob. It's for Mob.

And I'm going to share a little bit over the next hour, as a learning community, the process, what we've learnt, what we've put into this resource. It will be available on the BlackCard website very soon.

So, without further ado, I would like to introduce our learning community, the deadly women that are here on the screen right now, that have given up a lot of their time, their energy, their knowledge, to be part of this learning community.

On that note, in Aboriginal culture, age has its privileges. We would go to the eldest first, and they would open up. So I'm going to start by handing over the microphone to Gaala Watson to introduce herself. Thank you.

Dr Gaala Watson: Thanks, Mundanara. And yes, don't be exposing all of our ages. I'd like to think I'm one of the youngest, by the way, just for the record.

Thank you for having me today. My name is Dr Gaala Watson. I'm a Gangulu and Birri-Gubba woman, born and raised here in beautiful Jagera Country. I am a full-time researcher at the University of Queensland's Business School, within the Indigenous Business Hub. My research focuses primarily on Aboriginal governance based on Aboriginal terms of reference. I also work more broadly around the Indigenous business landscape and Indigenous economics as well.

In terms of social enterprise, I've been involved in the social enterprise sector at both a state and national level since about 2018. So I've been here for a long time.

How I came across social enterprise was, I was doing my MBA (Master of Business Administration), and it was a very new concept, an up-and-coming business model and way of doing business. And when I started to learn that it was about community, about social impact and environmental impact, all I could think was this is how our Mob have always done business. So I kind of was drawn to it immediately, but also standing there and making sure people knew that when business is done on Aboriginal terms of reference, it kind of precedes social enterprise as a business model and as an idea.

So yeah, very happy to be here, thank you so much.

Mundanara Bayles: Deadly, thank you. So Gaala's like my aunty in proper Murri way but cause she's younger than me we grew up calling each other cus, and then we talk on the phone and it's sis. So aunty, cus, sis. Doctor now. Thank you, Gaala.

Renai, do you want to do a little intro, who you are, what you do?

Renai Mouton: Thanks, Mara. Hi everyone, Renai Mouton. Thanks, Mara, for that beautiful acknowledgement and introduction.

Yes, Renai Mouton. I'm a Koori woman. My family are Gamilaroi from Tamworth, Nundle, Western New South Wales. And I'm calling in from Kambuwal, Githabul Country in southeast Queensland.

I've been part of the social enterprise space since I attended the Social Enterprise World Forum in Brisbane quite a few years ago, and it blew my mind. I was like, oh my God, here's an industry or a sector that aligns to my cultural ways of being, and I had no idea that it existed in this way.

And so I've worked quite closely through different avenues within the sector. Most recently I worked closely with Social Enterprise Australia through my own consulting firm, and previously as CEO (Chief Executive Officer) of a First Nations-run charity, working with First Nations entrepreneurs throughout New South Wales and Queensland and really exploring for-purpose in business and what does that look like and how does that align, or how is the sector modelling collective ways of being that we've been modelling for 60,000 to 70,000 years.

So really very interesting for me in that context and I'm really, really excited to be part of this project and to be here for the yarn today. Thank you.

Mundanara Bayles: Deadly, thank you, Renai. Kylie, my sister.

Kylie Penehoe: Thank you, thank you for the Acknowledgement of Country.

Yeah, Kylie Penehoe, proud Wonnarua and Wiradjuri woman. I'm calling in from the Turrbal, Jagera and Yugarabul Country.

I'm also privileged to be the inaugural CEO (Chief Executive Officer) of the National Indigenous Employment and Training Alliance. Our name says it all, that's what we're about, but we are considered an ACCO (Aboriginal Community-Controlled Organisation). We're a representation body that really supports and represents First Nations businesses that are involved in employment and training.

For me, I've been involved in social enterprise from a representation of our members who operate in ways that are social enterprise, but also in our own right as a not-for-profit organisation who can't solely rely on grant funding to survive. We need to have mixed revenue sources. So trade activity has always been a part of our remit. For-purpose mandate is an Aboriginal way of doing, and that's always been really firmly front and focus for us. So we're really chasing different trade activities to pursue our mission, as opposed to chasing money to pursue mission.

Mundanara Bayles: Deadly, thank you. Carly, you're up next.

Carly Forrest: Good morning, good morning. Does that mean I'm the youngest here?

Hi everyone, I'm Carly Forrest. I'm a proud Mandandanji woman. My Mob's from Roma. I was born there on that Country, but I've been living here on Kabi Kabi Country on the Sunny Coast since I was three years old. Done all my schooling, uni, growing up and now growing my family up here too.

Because of the impacts of colonisation and the forced removal of our people, I've also got connections through my pop's Traditional Country which is Darumbal Country. He was removed from Rocky, taken to Cherbourg as a child. My grandmother on pop's side, Jessie Miller, was removed from Claremont, so Gangulu and Wangan connection there, and taken to Cherbourg where they met and eventually started their family. By the time my pop was born, the family had been given permission by the superintendent to move over onto Straddy, to Myora Mission. My pop was born there on the mission with his youngest sister, my Aunty Loretta Macdonald. A lot of you Mob know those Macdonald sisters, my lovely aunties. So that's me, my grounding. Through my grandmother's line we've never left our Country, our Mandandanji Country, but also through Granny's line we're connected to Gamilaroi Country as well through the Fernando line.

So I'm probably related to all the Blackfellas here on the call in some way or another, and you know most of Queensland and into that northern country New South Wales. That's why I had to go and marry a Scotsman who came over here when he was 12, because I didn't know which Mob I was related to or not, because all of them.

So in 2023 I started a small business. I'd spent a decade in higher education management. I first heard of social entrepreneurship when I was doing my Bachelor of Business degree, one of only two Aboriginal people in the School of Business back in 2011. And that really resonated with me. Like all the sisters have shared this morning, it's our ways of being and doing. I've always grown up under my family being told those Aboriginal ways of being, which is giving back to community, looking after community, looking after others.

So definitely resonated with me. I started my small business in 2023, and in that time I've probably worked directly with 50 to 60 Aboriginal small business owners, want-to-be small business owners, entrepreneurs, and every single one of them has a social aspect and goal as part of their business. No matter what their business model is registered as or what industry it's operating in, all of them want to employ Mob. They want to support community. They want to give back to their community. They want to start maybe a not-for-profit to their business. Whatever that looks like, every single Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander business owner that I've worked directly with in my small pocket of southeast Queensland in this world has had that lived experience and that lived desire to give back.

And even myself, I'm doing my tax with my accountant at the moment and I'm looking at everything going, where'd all the money go? Oh that's right, the money went back to community. I've taken my little director draw but we're buying laptops for kids and whatever, putting on events, and all of those sorts of things. I'm like, oh that's where the money went, good. I'm glad, that makes me feel better than it going in my bank account. But yeah, that was my motivation and desire, and to support these sisters here and contribute where I can. So thank you.

Mundanara Bayles: Oh Carly, thank you. You just reminded me, brother Brad Beetson living on Kabi Kabi Country there. Brother, I missed a call from him yesterday, and I'm pretty sure it's about sponsoring the Bunyas for the Murri Carnival. BlackCard last year decided to take our sponsorship money from the Brisbane Natives. Johnny Brady wasn't happy after seven years of sponsoring the Brisbane Blacks. We now live on Kabi Kabi Country and I asked my husband, does it feel wrong that we're still giving money to the Brisbane community but we live on Kabi Kabi Country? We've been here for seven years. So now using BlackCard's, you know, a bit of money that we make to go back into local community where we're living. So just reminded me to get back in touch with the brother after this call.

So you can see now from the stories, and it's only two minutes each of sharing a little bit about who we are and what we do.

Most in the call already know me, but for those that don't, my name is Mundanara. I am one of nine daughters. I don't have any brothers. I grew up on Gadigal Country. I'm 10 generations from Redfern, so I'm a Koori woman, born and raised, moved up to Queensland. My father was a Gangulu, Birri Gubba man, a Dawson River Murri, who met my mother during the height of the Black civil rights movement in Sydney. After raising children, my dad got an opportunity to come back to Queensland after living in Redfern, come back to Brisbane, to Jagera Country, and to help his uncle out with a job at the radio station AAA Murri Country, which was founded by Gaala's father.

And I feel like us as a family, we were Koori kids, young Koori kids from Redfern, coming up to Queensland and then going to the school that Uncle Ross also founded, The Murri School. We went to a black school. We went to a school where we were the majority, not the minority. So I feel really blessed to grow up in both worlds, to grow up in my Aboriginal community in Redfern and grow up in the Aboriginal community in Brisbane. But to be immersed within our culture from the day I was born, to socialise amongst Aboriginal people from the day that I was born.

My mother, however, didn't have that privilege. She was forcibly removed under government policy. Her mother was removed. Her mother was removed. So five generations of stolen children on my mother's side. She didn't know that she was a Wonnarua woman, Kylie, until she was in her 30s. She didn't know that her ancestors had been in Sydney since time immemorial.

And I just want to share that with people, that on one side of my family, not knowing who they were, being wards of the state, not being proud of their identity for a very long time. And then on my dad's side, very different, growing up on the Dawson River, growing up on Country, being connected to culture, and not being removed from their families. So we've got two different experiences within my family.

However, I now have my own family. I married a Kiwi-born Fijian. We've got five Aboriginal Kiwi-Fijian kids. The two eldest ones are Quandamooka kids, their mother's from North Stradbroke Island, Minjerribah. And they're also from near Mandandanji Country. One of them's got the tattoo of Pitta Pitta, Pitta Pitta Mob. I've got three kids that go for Queensland and two that go for New South Wales. So that's our family, living between the Sunny Coast, which is Kabi Kabi, Gubbi Gubbi Country, and the two older ones living in Brisbane on Jagera Country.

So that's my story in a nutshell, running BlackCard, but not being able to ever pay an extra mortgage repayment, not ever being able to pay a credit card off when we should. I should be more financially stable, but I'm torn when it comes to supporting, say, the Bunyas, the Sunshine Coast, young 14-year-olds and 16-year-olds playing in the Murri Carnival, where they're needing sponsors to get their gear and to take the financial burden off parents that can't pay registration fees for their kids. So I know that BlackCard is more training consulting and we're out there trying to make profit for purpose. But at the same time, all of our profit over the last 10 years has gone back into community. 90% of our money has gone to funerals, to support Aboriginal families that I've never met when it comes to Sorry Business.

And a lot of those Black fellas in the community, they know. I tell them not to thank us publicly, otherwise we'll be broke. And there's nothing on our website that tells people to come to us if you're struggling financially when it comes to paying for funerals.

So that's my backstory, and there's more, but you can yarn with us after today.

For the purpose of this conversation, we want to get into the first question that I want to open up to our group, our little learning community. What was it in the expression of interest, what was it that pricked your interest? Anyone can answer. We'll get one or two answers and then I'll go on to the next question. But what was it that stood out where you knew that this was something that you wanted to be part of?

Dr Gaala Watson: I'll jump in first, Mara. I think seeing that it was being run by BlackCard, despite the family connection, knowing that BlackCard is a reputable and well-known Aboriginal business nationally. Also the fact that the work that you Mob do is always based on Aboriginal terms of reference. So for me, to see something that said social enterprise and knowing that it was going to be developed by you Mob, yeah. But also, anything that's got to do with social enterprise I will always put my hand up to be part of when it comes to Blackfellas, yeah.

Mundanara Bayles: Deadly, thank you. Kylie, my sister, and then we'll go over to Renai.

Kylie Penehoe: Thank you. Look, for me, it was the opportunity of an Aboriginal community of practice, definitely interested in social enterprise, interested in social impact and how we do it. The draw card was the learning opportunity that we had as a collective, being able to learn amongst other really strong-minded, deadly talented Aboriginal women, and having people to kind of tackle those issues. We've had some pretty intense conversations, really challenging things trying to unpack things, but being with like-minded people to unpack that and understand it in our ways. And I think that was the beauty of it, was that Aboriginal community of practice approach.

Mundanara Bayles: Love this. Renai.

Renai Mouton: Same, Gaala and Kylie have touched on two points. The same for me: BlackCard, reputable, great organisation that I wanted to connect in with. And also it was reciprocal, because I felt like I had stuff to share. I'd worked with 70-odd First Nations entrepreneurs for the last four years throughout Queensland and New South Wales, and a lot of social enterprise, social sector, social impact conversation had come up, and I wanted to share that. But also I wanted to learn from a deadly group of Aboriginal people around working together in the cohort. So yeah, that's what drew me to it. Thank you.

Mundanara Bayles: Thank you. I was going to say, in terms of when we all got together, I invited a colleague, a BlackCard alumni, a sister called Maria Padbury, and I brought Maria on as a non-Indigenous person who has already been through BlackCard training and has been working with BlackCard for quite some time. We needed a project manager and someone to look after the governance.

I did not want to put the extra responsibility on our learning community to also wear two hats. I wanted people to be present. I wanted everyone to not feel the pressure of who's taking notes, who's capturing this. So we do have a non-Indigenous woman who I want to acknowledge, that's been in the background and has hardly ever come off mute whenever she was in a meeting. Just in the background taking notes. So most everyone else is First Nations except for Maria, with the project management hat, purely project managing this.

So we all get together, we jump on a call, and then we start to realise, when I unpack the outputs, this is what's required and these are the timeframes. By the way, every single person has been paid for their time. There were about 11 meetings over around 18 months, and everyone to be paid for their time. That was the first thing I want to let people know. It wasn't voluntary, and we would not expect anyone to do this in a voluntary capacity either.

So we get on the call and we look at the deliverables within the contract, with Social Enterprise Australia managing the contract, and the community decided: hold a minute, is this what we want to do? Now here I am, as the recipient of this grant with BlackCard's name on it, going in my head: hold a minute, I've already signed this contract, this is what we're going to be doing. I didn't say that, but in my head I was like, hold a minute, there's a bit of conflict here, how are we going to manage it?

So as a group we had a discussion, and I'd like to invite the women, any of you, to jump in and share some of those reflections on those really early conversations about 12 months ago. How we flipped it. Kylie.

Kylie Penehoe: Thanks, happy to kick off. Look, I think this was probably the real essence of it, and it's part of the reason why we wanted to share this with the rest of the community.

We often talk about consultation with Aboriginal people, being willing to centre Aboriginal voices in what we're doing. So through early conversations, we kind of acknowledged and identified that the gap was: where's the collective benefit for Mob in developing this? And that was kind of where we started to unpack things and say, well, hold on, what is the benefit to Mob as opposed to just supporting the social enterprise community, the non-Indigenous community, to engage with our people? How do we also build the capacity and give benefit to our community?

Going through that identification of, this is where we think the gap is, this is where we think the benefit is, was really powerful. What was more powerful, and I think this is a lesson for most people, is the willingness, Mundanara, for yourself, for BlackCard, to take it up with the funding organisations. Because often everyone will start a project with a concept, you've got a hypothesis, you think this is how it's going to go. We say we're going to consult, but if you're genuine about consultation, you need to be genuine about moving your behaviour and your actions to reflect what that consultation is telling you. And what it was telling us was that we needed to shift the dial.

Taking that back to the funders, getting agreement to go, no, you're right, let's shift that focus. That was really powerful. It is also really empowering, as Aboriginal people, to know our voice was listened to and we shifted gears.

Mundanara Bayles: Kylie, thank you. I just want to say really quickly, the start of the grant in itself was about cultural protocols, engaging with community, and having national representation. We couldn't find anyone in WA that had the time and the knowledge, lived experience and expertise within the sector. We couldn't find anyone in WA, we couldn't find anyone in South Australia, and we couldn't find anyone in Tasmania in terms of the expressions of interest that went out. People then applied. We then were getting together saying, hey Sister Girl Nicole, we were starting to use our own networks to try and get that representation so we could move forward.

And you know, can one person in WA speak for all of those Mobs across WA? No. So again, that was an issue for us to stay on the same projectory where we were, trying to do one document and realising that it wasn't the right document or resource.

Gaala, and then I'll go over to Carly.

Dr Gaala Watson: Yeah, I just want to reiterate what Kylie said. I think the fact that we were able to take the initial idea, something that would really benefit and was for the non-Indigenous members of the social enterprise sector, and then be able to brainstorm and come up with something that is actually for our Mob, that was very powerful in itself. And I just want to recognise the flexibility of SEA (Social Enterprise Australia) to be able to work through that with us.

Mundanara Bayles: Yeah. And it pushed our timeframes out, our deliverables, just so you all know. We had to go back to the drawing board and rethink things, and it took time, and we had to go back to Sherryl and let her know: look, we're going to start from scratch here. We'll come back to you, update the contract, and then we're going to try and keep this moving forward with the busy lives that each of us on this call live and have. We still managed to get to where we are today on time.

Thanks to Renai, sis, I just have to point out the fact that Yarraka Bayles is a trainer and consultant at BlackCard. This project started to get too big for Yarraka, so we decided mid-project we're going to pull Yarraka out and bring another lead consultant in, and Renai took up that position literally overnight. Again, it wasn't part of the plan when we first kicked off the learning community. So big shout out to you, Renai, as well for jumping in and supporting and getting us to where we are today.

Carly.

Carly Forrest: Yeah, thanks, Mara. And you know Dimity's just put a comment in the chat saying love how we're a true peer learning community and we could adapt and shift. And I think that just echoes what I was going to reiterate with Gaala and what Kylie had shared.

When we came into this it was really natural, just Blackfella yarning, right? This was really important. Mara and Renai would come with just one question or a thought for the day to open the meeting up and it would just naturally go on this whole journey, which is how we came to this. It was insightful, deep, respectful, community, Mob-led yarning way. We didn't come with this full framework of this is what we're going to do, this is how we're going to achieve it, and these are all the KPIs we need to hit. We really did it our way, our style, and I think it shows with where we've gotten to today.

And yeah, again reiterating thank you to the funding body for allowing us and accepting that when we came back and said: look, this is our pivot. Yeah, thank you.

Mundanara Bayles: In terms of our learning community, a few of you just touched on how naturally, as Aboriginal women, we kind of just gelled. I didn't really know you, Kylie. I'd spoken to you a few times, Renai. Carly and I, we see each other a lot, but we've never really had a meeting to sit down and yarn about our businesses. And obviously I've known Gaala all of my life.

But when we got on that call, we just connected, we gelled, and we felt, I'm not going to use the term culturally safe, but I would say empowered. It felt empowering to just be with deadly Black women and yarn. And that also sometimes went over the hour that we had, because we would talk about our lives, we talk about our businesses, we talk about our challenges. We even had to pause for Sorry Business. Not all of us were available at every meeting, and that was okay as well. We put some rules in place: a majority had to be there and make sure that you read the notes and catch up on things, so that we could keep this project going.

I want to talk about how naturally we worked together as a group, but for many people in this sector, collective working may feel new. But for Aboriginal people, it's something that we've always done.

I'd love to hear reflections from the group about what the experience felt like. Maybe just one or two of you talking about working as a collective.

Dr Gaala Watson: I think I'm just going to jump in real quick. I think the practice of consensus decision making comes so naturally to us, so we never had an issue with someone wanting things one way and not agreeing. It was just very, very natural and very relational, because we are all Aboriginal women in the same room together and we've all got the common goal. That consensus just comes naturally. It made it easy, didn't it? It literally made it a lot easier than I thought it was going to be, and I'd never done a project like this before, so I had no idea how it was going to turn out. And whether we were actually going to deliver on time.

Renai Mouton: Yeah, same as what you've said, Mara and Gaala. I think because we are collective cultural women, then what we're doing is bigger than ourselves. So when we come together, we connect immediately because we connect through shared lived experiences, and we're also relational people, so we connect in that way, which is a stronger connection from the very beginning. But we all signed up to this to do something bigger than just for ourselves. And so I think that always leads us to doing something in a much more collaborative way.

And like you said, Gaala, it's natural. This is how I work in everything that I do. And I know for the other four women here, we're the same. This is how we step into the world every day. So that's what made it really easy.

Kylie Penehoe: Yeah, I agree with the deadly women before me with what they said. That collective decision making was certainly there, and that relational aspect. We met each other as human beings, and I think sometimes people overthink: how do I engage with an Aboriginal group? How do I engage with an Aboriginal person? But we just respected each other.

I mean, there were situations, I think when we first started, we were doing them at night. I've got kids, they're in the background. Life is still happening, but I want to be involved. Like, if that's okay. That level of flexibility and allowing us to have our life and participate in genuine ways, and being like, you know, I've got you if you can't meet the meeting tomorrow, send through your thoughts via email. That flexibility really allows us to give ourselves into the project, as opposed to being too rigid with a really strict: here's the timeframe, here's the agenda, we're tackling this. Because if you're unable to meet it because of that structure, you're losing so much from that. And so that was a really important value that we held.

Mundanara Bayles: Yeah, Carly, remember we did start on a 10am meeting every second Tuesday, and then we realised that the Tuesday 10am wasn't working. So then we were like, okay, let's move it to a night-time meeting. We changed our meetings, reached consensus. People all said: let's just do this, but I might not be available, and that's okay. So flexibility.

Carly Forrest: All I was going to say is that don't get it wrong, we didn't agree on everything. Consensus and all of our yarns and our discussions does not mean that we were always agreeable and aligning. But we have enough respect for one another. That's what this consensus decision making came to, the flow, because whenever critiques or different opinions were raised, we were able to work through it, come to the point, and then all get on board, consider other people's opinions and thoughts and viewpoints. So we certainly didn't agree on everything throughout, but we had enough respect, cultural love and respect for one another, that we worked through that process.

Renai Mouton: Can I just quickly say it also allowed us to pivot. Sometimes we had a plan and then we'd come together and I remember quite clearly Carly was like, oh, I don't think I like that, how about we do this? And the idea was better and we were like, oh yeah, okay, that's heaps better, let's do that. That's kind of how it rolled.

Mundanara Bayles: Why don't you all just come off mute? I feel terrible. Jump in when you need to jump in.

I just want to say that in terms of people speaking their minds, there's that kind of, I'm going back to cultural safety, where people feel safe enough to be open and share their thoughts and feelings and opinions and perspectives. We felt safe within our group.

Relationship building is so important. Invest in relationships. When you are going into community, spend the first hour or two on building a relationship rather than getting into business and looking at your agenda. If you invest in relationships, it minimises the potential for conflict. When you invest in relationships, also, when people come together to talk about business, it's like the outcome is preordained. We are coming together to be in agreement.

I'm not just saying with this learning community. I'm talking about within Aboriginal culture and society. When we're coming together to make decisions, Aboriginal people have been building relationships for tens of thousands of years. We're not saying that we lived in peace and harmony, but we had a stable, efficient society. Stability and efficiency, not peace and harmony. So we allow for conflict. We gave conflict a place within our community, within our culture, within our society. We gave conflict a place.

It's not how you resolve conflict in Aboriginal culture, it's how you manage conflict. Conflict management over conflict resolution. That's one example of how we deal with things, our approach.

So you can't just all rock up together with Indigenous and non-Indigenous people and think we're all going to be able to reach consensus. It will not happen overnight. But if you have been investing in relationships with Mob, with community, you'll find that respect towards each other, where people will just go with the majority, people will go with the group, put their differences aside. We weren't democrats in terms of Aboriginal people, so no voting. When you vote, you've just drawn a line in the sand. You now have winners and losers. And losers don't like losing.

So just think about that when you're coming together. Invest in those relationships so you're building those foundations for long-term positive outcomes, long-term relationships with community.

Kylie Penehoe: I think that's a really key point around that investment. I also just wanted to reiterate, we are a collective of five intelligent, strong-minded, opinionated Black women, so there definitely were tensions. It's not like we were always completely ideologically aligned. We come from different backgrounds, private sector versus I'm in a not-for-profit sector. So we used those tension points to really unpack and understand. And as Carly said, we created that space to have respect and to be able to hear each other out and understand each other. But by no means were we ideologically all the same.

Mundanara Bayles: No, like I said, I hadn't met you before, Kylie. We just got on this call and started to feel each other out from the moment we got on.

Really important in terms of some of the takeaways from the yarns so far: consensus decision making. Think about Aboriginal governance, Aboriginal approaches, not just when you're engaging with Aboriginal peoples. Think about that. Gender as well.

Carly Forrest: Mara, I just wanted to add in there, I think it's really important to also share with the group, we never actually met in person as this whole group. So even throughout this time, we've all run into each other at other events and that. But this actual collective, this was all developed using a modern yarning circle online.

Mundanara Bayles: Yes. Thank you.

But relationships. I just want to go back to relationships. If that's one of the key takeaways from this yarn today, it's how important relationships are. Start to think about how you can be more relational rather than transactional in your interactions with people. Full stop, with people. Relational rather than transactional.

No egos, that is a core value, a really important feature of Aboriginal culture. It's a non-ego based society, non-judgmental, non-competitive. It's a group based society where you locate your individuality amongst your group. So just understanding those key features of Aboriginal culture before you go and engage with Aboriginal people will get you a long way in those conversations.

Cultural load and contribution. This is interesting. I know a lot of Mob talk about this. Some people call it colonial load, some people call it cultural load. And there are universities now, I think it's Macquarie University, that now remunerate cultural load. Have a look into that in terms of organisations that are remunerating when it comes to cultural load.

So participation in work like this happens alongside many other responsibilities. I want to invite the group to reflect on what it meant to contribute to this work while balancing all of your other commitments. You know, it's women in our culture that are holding families and communities together. We are the backbone of our community. So to have all women giving up their time, and all of us are mums and have multiple caring responsibilities as well. Gaala's been looking after my niece, who's two years old. Her mum's been in and out of prison, and Gaala stepped in and started doing caring responsibilities. So does anyone want to jump in? Gaala, you might want to kick us off when it comes to just trying to get that balance right when it comes to family, cultural, community responsibilities.

Dr Gaala Watson: Of course. And it's not a burden, it's a privilege to be in a position to be able to look after the little baba. It's a bit of a shock after having big teenagers now. But it is, it's an obligation for us.

But I think it is very empowering to be a professional woman as well. If we look at our mothers and grandmothers, when they were young mums, they didn't have the opportunity that we have to be online and to have a full career and have kids. That wasn't always an option for those generations before us.

But the cultural load, or colonial load, is real. I look at my non-Indigenous colleagues in the university and some of the issues that they face are very different to ours. And it's part of the reality of being a Blackfella. It's not to complain, like I said, it's a privilege, but we carry a lot as Aboriginal people, as Aboriginal mothers, as Aboriginal women. We carry a lot and we also have to bring our whole self to work. A lot of the work that we do, we're not in non-identified positions where we're just another employee. We are expected to represent our culture, to represent our people, and that is a load, absolutely. But also a privilege and an obligation.

Kylie Penehoe: Thank you. I think a couple of comments on that. I think you called out early on, Mundanara, the fact that we were paid as part of this, and that was something that was really important to you, which was about respecting the expertise we are bringing, valuing and monetising that commercial element, that cultural piece, that community piece. And that's part of the reason why being paid was an important part of this project, to recognise that.

The other thing I felt like we did really well: it has been a journey, it's been about 11 months of conversations, and you have life ups and downs. And there's been moments as Aboriginal women, as Aboriginal leaders in our spaces, where we've been depleted. There's been many conversations that we've had and we're like, it's just not feeling that great, this is going on, it's a bit heavy. And we gave each other grace to kind of feel a certain way. And some of us still turned up and were just like, look, I'm just not feeling the best because I'm carrying a really heavy load. Or the work that we do is more than just our jobs. We don't just switch off at five and walk out the door. We carry this heavy emotional burden and this obligation to community. As Gaala said, we recognise the privilege we have as Aboriginal women compared to our generations before us that have pushed the dial, and so we feel that obligation, that pull of accountability and that community obligation to move that dial forward. So we try to give it the most that we can to make it better for the next generation. And so that's a real aspect of what goes on in parallel with running the project itself.

Mundanara Bayles: Kylie, you just made me think of this, and Gaala, I hope it doesn't make you cry because I still get emotional.

But October last year, my niece, when my sister went to prison, when my mum passed 23 years ago, I was 18 and my dad basically asked me and my older sister Yarraka, I was just finished year 12 and Yarraka had twin daughters that were like a year old, and my dad asked if we could look after the four kids full time while my sister was in prison, and my mum had just passed away literally like a week before. Anyhow, one of those young girls who I've raised like my own, she actually passed away in October last year at the age of 28, and her mother died. So my older sister died literally two weeks after the funeral.

Now this happened October, November, December in terms of Sorry Business, within my own family with Gaala as well. And how we were able to navigate this project and all the other commitments. I sit on seven boards as well, I didn't know I sat on seven, counted the other day. How to juggle Sorry Business when we're going to funerals. If we're not going to funerals, we're grieving. Most weeks, most days. And then the Easter holidays, my first cousins, my dad's three brothers, their ashes went back to the Dawson River. More Sorry Business to take their ashes back to the river. So that was just in April, two months ago.

So there's always Sorry Business, and non-Aboriginal people really have to learn the history of this country to understand the impacts of colonialism and the impacts of past government policies that have led to the circumstances that we're dealing with today. A lot of the challenges that we're dealing with, with premature deaths in our community, and a lot of people grieving, a lot of suicides in our community.

So I just want people to understand that if you understand the history of this country, then you'll be much more open-minded, much more compassionate, much more empathetic. Just be open-minded when you're coming to the table to work with Aboriginal people. There are going to be setbacks, lots of setbacks. Are you willing to be flexible? If you're not willing to be flexible, then I don't think you should be working with our people within our communities. We're still going to have to go to funerals. We'll still be grieving. We'll still have Sorry Business. It's never ending.

Before we go to the group, because I'm mindful of time, I do want to talk about one thing really quickly in terms of the support structure around the learning community. We all supported each other, reached out to each other, didn't have meetings when there was Sorry Business. We did pause.

The leadership, in terms of how Aboriginal leadership shaped the direction and the content within this resource. We were going to give you a sneak peek of the resource, but then we thought, no, we won't. We'll let you wait until the resource is fully developed.

But does anyone want to talk about Aboriginal leadership or the way that we've supported each other, just to kind of close the yarn up and give people an opportunity to come off mute and ask us a few questions?

Dr Gaala Watson: I think it's really important to say that a lot of us don't really classify leadership. We don't really have leadership. The aunties often refer to people with leadership responsibilities. And when I look at the group here now, I can see that when Yarraka came in, she had those leadership responsibilities and then Mara kind of always had them and then Renai took them on. So I think that leadership on Aboriginal terms of reference, it's very lateral. And at times we were all stepping into those responsibilities or just as knowledge holders, which is what Western people would kind of refer to as leadership. But there was no hierarchy and there never is when we work together as Aboriginal people on Aboriginal terms of reference.

Mundanara Bayles: And that's so good to point out, Gaala. Such an important piece of information: no hierarchy. In Aboriginal society, no kings, no queens, no monarchies, no leaders as such, no chieftain system, no class system. Male and female worked in partnership when it came to running a country. We worked in partnership. Men weren't above women. Children weren't below us. Understanding that is really important, that lateral governance system.

Thank you, Gaala.

Renai Mouton: Yeah, thank you. And I think that comes back to what we were saying earlier about how, when we talk about consensus and collective ways of being, leadership is fluid. So whoever is speaking or whoever has the idea or is stepping up, that's who's holding those leadership responsibilities at the time. And I think that's really important. No egos, no leaders, everyone working together and bringing what they can. That's a really important part of our experience.

Mundanara Bayles: Deadly. Does Kylie or Carly want to jump in because I'm now going to open up for questions.

And for everyone that did take the time to join us, please do not leave without filling in the feedback. We value feedback. We need to know what you want to know more, what direction this project could go into. Could we do another learning community? So please make sure you fill out that feedback while we open up the floor.

But Kylie, did you want to say anything before we wrap up? Or Carly?

Kylie Penehoe: No, I'm good. I think the other ladies captured it perfectly.

Mundanara Bayles: Yeah, likewise. We could have done 90 minutes, but we didn't know whether we could keep people's attention for 90 minutes. So we went for one hour. So maybe you might tell us that this could have gone for 90 minutes.

Alrighty, anyone now that's joined us, please either put your hands up or drop a question in the chat.

Sherryl, thank you so much in the background. When reports are due and things, you're like: okay, I just need to get that document from you, Mara. I'm like: look, Sherryl, my sister just passed away. I'll talk to you next month. I don't know when I'm going to get the report to you, sorry. Like literally, that was some of the conversations I had with her. Yeah, it was the last thing I was thinking about. We were trying to fundraise for funerals.

Does anyone want to jump in, dying to ask a question, or are you too busy doing the feedback?

Dr Gaala Watson: I just want to quickly acknowledge to Sherryl and Athanasia the support that you've provided. It's beautiful to work with you both. Yes, it's been a very positive experience.

Mundanara Bayles: And also on IP (Intellectual Property), deadly sister girl, I want to shout out to Natasha Short, Kimberly Jiggers, Kimberly Birds, and Kananara there. Natasha did mention: hey, who owns the IP (Intellectual Property) to this? The Mob own the IP (Intellectual Property)? So we had lots of different discussions and conversations that we can share at a later time as well. The IP (Intellectual Property) has been licensed basically back to Social Enterprise Australia, and it's going to sit on BlackCard's website as well as Understorey.

Okay, I see a hand up.

Athanasia Price: Thank you so much for sharing so generously. I really loved hearing about the process you went through, especially when we're thinking about the social enterprise national strategy and the commitments and the callouts to First Nations-led work in there. I think I've understood this from working with the Understorey First Nations Reference Group and from hearing how you organised: lateral hierarchy, and also someone or some people who are supported and funded to take a lead, to keep it going, to help tick it along and bring everyone on the journey. Is that what I'm hearing there?

Dr Gaala Watson: Yeah, absolutely. Just going back to what our aunties say, we don't have leaders but we have people who have leadership responsibilities. And so that lateral hierarchy means that when we come together as a group, no one outranks anyone, no one is above anyone. We come on equal terms. And in this project, those people with the leadership responsibilities shifted and changed all the time and it was very fluid.

Carly Forrest: And I think because we all had our little roles to play at various different times as well. So in our families and our society, knowing your role, playing your role, and stepping in and stepping across where you need to be. At times Renai was like the mum, Gaala was the wise aunty, and Kylie and I were the petulant children at times with our devil's advocate hat on, and Mundanara the big sister keeping us all in line.

And I don't know how many times we did meetings and either you're in the car, Carly, or I was on the train coming back to the Sunny Coast from Brisbane. Those night meetings, getting cut out because of those beautiful ancestor mountains. We just made it happen. I want people to know that it was not just a perfect, you know, journey. Everything happened the way it happened, and I wouldn't change anything. Would you?

Mundanara Bayles: I don't think I'd change anything. The Elders, the aunties always say this to me, that when you do things the proper way, which is the Blackfella way, the Aboriginal way, when you do things properly, which means don't take shortcuts, you'll always get the best outcome.

Dimity, I can see your hand up.

Dr Dimity Podger: I have so many questions. Thank you for so much sharing and your deep wisdom and your approach to learning, which is so deeply your way of being and knowing, so thank you so much. I've got too many questions.

I'm convening an innovation collaboration learning community called Weave, and one of the things I'm grappling with is that if we want places to be resilient and prosperous, First Nations sovereignty and leadership, it's not an element in the framework, it's not in the centre. I just want to put a circle around it and say, I'm not going to fill this in because I'm not Mob, but it needs to be there somehow in the framework. So I just wanted to raise that, and I'd love to catch up with some of you in a more professional capacity.

Mundanara Bayles: Dimity, is that an invitation? Are you looking for people?

Dr Dimity Podger: Yeah, I think so. I think so. And it's, when you reach out, if you've got an idea that you might need us for something, or we might be able to help you, or refer other people that might.

Mundanara Bayles: Yeah, I think that's right, Dimity, because it's like, when is the work finished? When's finished finished, for a period, and when can you say this needs to evolve? Because our understanding needs to evolve.

Thank you, Dimity. And look, reach out to any of us at any time. I'm more than happy on LinkedIn in particular for people to connect and we can take this chat offline, or we could organise some of the women here and get on a call with you if that's what you want to do. Have another yarn with us.

I am mindful of time. Kirsty did put a question in the chat: when will the resource be available? We have to acquit the grant by June 30, so we're hoping that the resource is live in early July.

Sherryl, you might be the woman that can answer this. Will the resource be available online in early July? Once we hand it over, can we go live within like a week? Because I know the resource is about 90% completed in terms of visually, we're just doing the hair and makeup, some touch-ups.

Sherryl Reddy: Love it. I think we can. I think we can aim for the first week of July.

Mundanara Bayles: That would be fab. Perfect.

Sherryl Reddy: Thank you so much to all of you, not only for this beautiful conversation today, but for all the time and care and generosity and just love that you invested in bringing this learning community together and for your grace and generosity in helping Social Enterprise Australia to learn.

I've had the chance over the past 11 months, through conversations with Mundanara and Gaala, Renai and Kylie, and Carly, it was great to meet you today, and I'm really grateful for the opportunities that I had to learn from you and from your ways of doing and being. That's helping me unlearn my colonial ways of operating in life, in family and in business. So thank you, heartfelt thanks for all your work.

Mundanara Bayles: Thank you, Sherryl. Most of our conversations I was at football training or at football carnivals or in the car. It was after hours a lot as well, people. Sherryl didn't go to my EA (Executive Assistant) and say: hey, I need to talk to Mundanara tomorrow. I said: Sherryl, you ring me anytime. I'll see you've got a missed call, and I'm probably better to get in touch with after hours. We had a lot of Sunday conversations as well.

So when you're building these relationships, then you know what people's boundaries are. You know, if I could say: look, I can work with you nine to five, talk to my EA (Executive Assistant) , then Sherryl would have. I gave her the green light to contact me anytime, but then she knew when not to contact me, not to put pressure on me. I'd let her know: we've got Sorry Business, you know. So that open line of communication is so important, especially when you're working with non-Indigenous people to try and get the project and the deliverables finalised or delivered on time.

So yeah, I just want to say thank you to the deadly sisters on this call. It's been an absolute pleasure. I know this is not the end of the project. I feel it's just the beginning for many opportunities to collaborate and work together with different ideas, not just within the social enterprise sector, but also within our communities and with the things that we do in our families as well.

So I just want to say thank you, and I'm excited for the resource and look forward to catching up with everyone. Maybe we can see each other in person one day. Our little learning community. We should have put that in the funding. That should have been in the grant. We need a line item. 

Renai Mouton: We need a writing retreat.

Mundanara Bayles: A writing retreat. We actually need to meet each other in person.

So on that note, thank you so much again to each and every one of you that turned up today. You obviously care about this sector, the work that you do, but also your investment when it comes to working with First Nations peoples. We need more allies. We need more advocates. We need more champions. So please reach out if there's anything that we can do to support you with the work that you're doing. I know that we're all here. We're not always available, but we're all here.

So thank you. Thank you, Social Enterprise Australia. Thank you to the Social Enterprise Development Initiative, the funding for us to come together as a learning community for this deep experience.

On that note, enjoy your afternoon and hope to connect with you all offline. Thank you.

Kylie Penehoe: Fantastic. Thank you, everyone.

Mundanara Bayles: Thank you, my sisters again.